11
The bar is open.... / Re: Tailwaters
« Last post by Dougfish on December 13, 2018, 17:55:02 PM »Good chit, sir. 
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..of all the liars among mankind, the fisherman is the most trustworthy. ~William Sherwood Fox, Silken Lines and Silver Hooks, 1954
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12
The bar is open.... / Re: Beetle's Book and Word Thread
« Last post by Dee-Vo on December 13, 2018, 13:57:43 PM »The Shining is a damned good book. A great book to let yourself fall wholly into with full imagination. Much better than the movie, per usual.
13
Trout Unlimited/Fly Fishing Federation / Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: 2018 Smith River Study
« Last post by Onslow on December 13, 2018, 06:00:02 AM »Regarding the noted warmer temps on the lower river, the most obvious culprit after doing a little comp research are the tribs entering the river below the dam. September 2018 was very wet, and very warm. There were three major events this past Fall where flows in the area were between 10-80 cfs per sq. mile. It is worth noting that the below dam watershed at Eggleston Falls is around 200 sq. miles which is almost as much as the river above the Philpott dam.
If the Meadow River in WV can put an end to the trout fishery in the Upper Gauley canyon in WV due to the influx of warm water, then the drainage below Philpott can surely do the same, particularly if experiencing flows 3x-5x higher than normal at the same time record September warmth is being experienced. It should also be noted that the warmest discharges from Philpott occur in late September. I dare say the changes in the upper river are correlation, and are completely unrelated to the issues at the lower river.
Browns aren't walleye or flatheads, and are probably not fond of feeding in carrot soup colored waters at 5000 cfs on the Smith. I have serious doubts that the lack of weight observed has anything to do with the amount of forage available on the lower river, but has more to do with the lack of access of forage due to muddy, warm, and high water.
If the Meadow River in WV can put an end to the trout fishery in the Upper Gauley canyon in WV due to the influx of warm water, then the drainage below Philpott can surely do the same, particularly if experiencing flows 3x-5x higher than normal at the same time record September warmth is being experienced. It should also be noted that the warmest discharges from Philpott occur in late September. I dare say the changes in the upper river are correlation, and are completely unrelated to the issues at the lower river.
Browns aren't walleye or flatheads, and are probably not fond of feeding in carrot soup colored waters at 5000 cfs on the Smith. I have serious doubts that the lack of weight observed has anything to do with the amount of forage available on the lower river, but has more to do with the lack of access of forage due to muddy, warm, and high water.
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Trout Unlimited/Fly Fishing Federation / Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: 2018 Smith River Study
« Last post by Al on December 12, 2018, 22:52:58 PM »I wasn't napping and I was there during all but one of the samples and of course if you looked closely at the slides you can see when they did the stomach samples it took place at my place. (My wife is still wondering how I caught all those trout I brought home)
My impression was about the same as explained in detail by George Palmer - Upper river is doing fine with the constant flows and even with only one turbine the water is remaining cool enough. The lower river is a different story - one turbine is not pushing enough cold water downstream. Combine that with unusually warm days and the fish down there are in an almost constant state of stress. We did not shock up as many in the lower river as in the past and those we did collect were not as fat.
Mudwall mentioned lack of forage fish noted in the stomachs - true but from talking to the DGIF crew that may have been becasue small bait fish are digested much faster than snails and crawfish. I know the ones we could identify were looking more like a blob of nothing than a bait fish.
One thing for sure - with only one turbine the periods of generation are almost 24/7 that makes for poor wading. From what I have heard via COE that is not going to change anytime soon. May be time for some of you guys to invest in a raft.
My impression was about the same as explained in detail by George Palmer - Upper river is doing fine with the constant flows and even with only one turbine the water is remaining cool enough. The lower river is a different story - one turbine is not pushing enough cold water downstream. Combine that with unusually warm days and the fish down there are in an almost constant state of stress. We did not shock up as many in the lower river as in the past and those we did collect were not as fat.
Mudwall mentioned lack of forage fish noted in the stomachs - true but from talking to the DGIF crew that may have been becasue small bait fish are digested much faster than snails and crawfish. I know the ones we could identify were looking more like a blob of nothing than a bait fish.
One thing for sure - with only one turbine the periods of generation are almost 24/7 that makes for poor wading. From what I have heard via COE that is not going to change anytime soon. May be time for some of you guys to invest in a raft.
15
The bar is open.... / Tailwaters
« Last post by Onslow on December 12, 2018, 21:30:45 PM »Lets beat the bushes for data, and learn a few things. Lets start with the Jackson River tailwater below Gathright. Measuring location is just below the dam.
Drainage size at Gathright Dam: 345 sq. miles
Average flow/acre-feet ratio (full pool): .00389562
Mean flow: 436 cfs
Mean flow for July: 288 cfs
Mean flow for August: 277 cfs
Mean flow for September: 269
Average river channel width: ~120'
Max temp for 2017, July: 62 degrees. 62 for 2016
Max temp for 2017, August: 62 degrees. 63 for 2016
Max temp for 2017, September: 62 degrees. 64 for 2016
Estimated trout habitat: 17 miles
Average streambed gradient for aforementioned section: ~10 feet per mile
Lowest daily mean flow for 2017: 156 cfs (September)
Lowest daily mean/average stream width ratio: 1.3 cfs/1' of width streambed
Altitude of upper end of tailwater: 1400'
Lake depth: ~150'
Smith River
Drainage size at Philpott: 216 sq. miles
Average discharge/Acre-Feet ratio (full pool): .00255535
Mean flow: 277.5
Mean flow for July: 254 cfs
Mean flow for August: 259 cfs
Mean flow for September: 249 cfs
Average channel width around Bassett: ~80'
Average channel width below Martinsville: ~100' except in a few wide rapids
Max temp for 2016, July: 52 degrees
Max temp for 2016, August: 55.4 degrees
Max temp for 2016, September: 58.28
Estimated tailwater trout habitat: 25 miles. Ends near Eggleston Falls.
Average Gradient: 8 FPM. Some areas reach almost 20 FPM
Lowest daily mean for 2017 (September): 119 cfs
Lowest daily mean/average stream width ratio (Bassett): 1.49
Altitude at upper end: 804'
Lake depth: 170'
Highest mean temps for the Summer of 2018 @ Martinsville was 74.5 degrees. This was a very brief spike. No data for 2016.
Basset readings are not really available 2016. The following numbers are for 2017
July max: 64.8
August max: 64.6
September max: 66.2
Thus far it appears the depth of Philpott and the lower rates of outflow vs. capacity affect discharge temps. The Smith also has less streambed exposure to the sun, but temps are probably augmented by Martinsville Lake.
Cataloochee Creek
Max temp July, 2016: 69.8 degrees
Max temp for August 2016: 71.4
Max temp for September: 68.5
The looch temps were taken at the gage station which is nearing the transition point.
Pound River @ Flannagan Dam
Drainage size @ dam: 221 sq. miles
Average discharge: 291.7 cfs
Average discharge/Acre-feet ratio: .002002
Average July discharge: 131 cfs
Average August discharge: 114 cfs
Average September discharge: 104 cfs
Lowest daily mean for 2017 (April): 13.6 cfs
Lowest daily mean for Summer: 53.7 cfs
Altitude below dam: 1210'
Lake depth: 190'
Tailwater length: 2 miles. Pound river enters Russell Fork 2 miles from the dam. Russell Fork holds trout down to Breaks Interstate Park.
Average streambed width: ~75'
Temps at dam are not available.
Drainage size at Gathright Dam: 345 sq. miles
Average flow/acre-feet ratio (full pool): .00389562
Mean flow: 436 cfs
Mean flow for July: 288 cfs
Mean flow for August: 277 cfs
Mean flow for September: 269
Average river channel width: ~120'
Max temp for 2017, July: 62 degrees. 62 for 2016
Max temp for 2017, August: 62 degrees. 63 for 2016
Max temp for 2017, September: 62 degrees. 64 for 2016
Estimated trout habitat: 17 miles
Average streambed gradient for aforementioned section: ~10 feet per mile
Lowest daily mean flow for 2017: 156 cfs (September)
Lowest daily mean/average stream width ratio: 1.3 cfs/1' of width streambed
Altitude of upper end of tailwater: 1400'
Lake depth: ~150'
Smith River
Drainage size at Philpott: 216 sq. miles
Average discharge/Acre-Feet ratio (full pool): .00255535
Mean flow: 277.5
Mean flow for July: 254 cfs
Mean flow for August: 259 cfs
Mean flow for September: 249 cfs
Average channel width around Bassett: ~80'
Average channel width below Martinsville: ~100' except in a few wide rapids
Max temp for 2016, July: 52 degrees
Max temp for 2016, August: 55.4 degrees
Max temp for 2016, September: 58.28
Estimated tailwater trout habitat: 25 miles. Ends near Eggleston Falls.
Average Gradient: 8 FPM. Some areas reach almost 20 FPM
Lowest daily mean for 2017 (September): 119 cfs
Lowest daily mean/average stream width ratio (Bassett): 1.49
Altitude at upper end: 804'
Lake depth: 170'
Highest mean temps for the Summer of 2018 @ Martinsville was 74.5 degrees. This was a very brief spike. No data for 2016.
Basset readings are not really available 2016. The following numbers are for 2017
July max: 64.8
August max: 64.6
September max: 66.2
Thus far it appears the depth of Philpott and the lower rates of outflow vs. capacity affect discharge temps. The Smith also has less streambed exposure to the sun, but temps are probably augmented by Martinsville Lake.
Cataloochee Creek
Max temp July, 2016: 69.8 degrees
Max temp for August 2016: 71.4
Max temp for September: 68.5
The looch temps were taken at the gage station which is nearing the transition point.
Pound River @ Flannagan Dam
Drainage size @ dam: 221 sq. miles
Average discharge: 291.7 cfs
Average discharge/Acre-feet ratio: .002002
Average July discharge: 131 cfs
Average August discharge: 114 cfs
Average September discharge: 104 cfs
Lowest daily mean for 2017 (April): 13.6 cfs
Lowest daily mean for Summer: 53.7 cfs
Altitude below dam: 1210'
Lake depth: 190'
Tailwater length: 2 miles. Pound river enters Russell Fork 2 miles from the dam. Russell Fork holds trout down to Breaks Interstate Park.
Average streambed width: ~75'
Temps at dam are not available.
16
Trout Unlimited/Fly Fishing Federation / Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: 2018 Smith River Study
« Last post by Dougfish on December 12, 2018, 20:02:00 PM »My takeaway was you need to tie up up some articulated hivis parachute tungsten pmd stonecray cdc flymphs. Size 8-20.
Or keep napping.
Sent from my LG-US998 using Tapatalk
Or keep napping.
Sent from my LG-US998 using Tapatalk
17
Trout Unlimited/Fly Fishing Federation / Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: 2018 Smith River Study
« Last post by Woolly Bugger on December 12, 2018, 18:23:21 PM »My bad, I did not listen to the 57+ minute presentations; I only looked at the ppt.
like you got anything better to do....
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Trout Unlimited/Fly Fishing Federation / Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: 2018 Smith River Study
« Last post by Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on December 12, 2018, 13:38:00 PM »QuoteDid I miss some “diet” stuff in the presentation?
I don't think I've met a retiree yet that didn't nap half the day away. Take a look at the 34 minute mark of the presentation. Diet discussion. You must have drifted off for a minute. My take away is that the crawfish seem to be doing better (higher temps?). Many of the browns sacrificed in the name of science had crawfish in their gut. This is a big change from the past. Still not many baitfish showing up though. If I remember correctly, aquatic critters #1 food source, #2, neck and neck were terrestrials and crawfish. Sound right Dougy?
My bad, I did not listen to the 57+ minute presentations; I only looked at the ppt. I just listened to the 34+ minute mark discussing diet. Thank you Fin!
19
Trout Unlimited/Fly Fishing Federation / Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: 2018 Smith River Study
« Last post by Fin on December 12, 2018, 13:08:10 PM »Quote
Did I miss some “diet” stuff in the presentation?
I don't think I've met a retiree yet that didn't nap half the day away. Take a look at the 34 minute mark of the presentation. Diet discussion. You must have drifted off for a minute. My take away is that the crawfish seem to be doing better (higher temps?). Many of the browns sacrificed in the name of science had crawfish in their gut. This is a big change from the past. Still not many baitfish showing up though. If I remember correctly, aquatic critters #1 food source, #2, neck and neck were terrestrials and crawfish. Sound right Dougy?
20
Trout Unlimited/Fly Fishing Federation / Re: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly: 2018 Smith River Study
« Last post by Big J on December 12, 2018, 12:49:42 PM »
Thank you J, for opening the wound even more, with the recap of my now unattainable retirement dreams. Santa does not think you are naughty or nice. He just thinks you are a peckerwood.
Any time pal!