DARBA is holding three public meeting about the weekend releases.
The first one is this coming Thursday, April 28!
6-7:30pm
Henry Co. Administration Building
3300 Kings Mountain Rd.
Martinsville, VA
We need as many bodies and voices as possible there. Spread the word to any non-member fishermen you know. too.
Spin, fly, we need all voices. The dam is broken now, but in about 6 mos., we are threatened with a return to the 4 hour mid day generation on both Saturday and Sunday. What is said next Thursday could make a real difference. Be courteous, be polite, be passionate, but be heard.
Get there early. At least a half hour early. We don't know how small a room it is being held in and we don't want to find it packed with nothing but paddlers.
Remember, our position is that we want a compromise. We have wanted a weekend generation for many years to keep the fish downstream healthy in the heat of summer. But two days, no. 4 hours, no. Right in the middle of the day, no. Year round, no.
Remind them that fisherman make an economic impact, too. And VDGIF's stocking program might be affected by the current schedule.
And what science was consulted before this release schedule was implemented? The press will likely be there as well as local and state legislators or their representatives. They need to hear us.
The next two dates are May 12 and June 9. Put those on your calendars, too.
I cannot make Thursday as I have a final on Friday morning. The other dates are up in the open for now as I am taking summer session classes. May 12th may be viable as my class does not begin until the 16th.
I wrote a letter several weeks ago but have no idea who it should be sent to. I think my key points are solid:
-I am a nonresident living near Fort Bragg, NC. The Smith provides me the closest opportunity to fish for trout.
-For several years, I have paid $94.00 for a nonresident license. This year, I have declined buying one because it is not economically viable for me to make a three hour drive to fish a couple hours and get out due to recreational releases, then get back in and fish for a few more hours.
-I am a disabled veteran and active in my local chapter of Project Healing Waters and I have introduced dozens of anglers from my local community to the Smith River. Many of them are undecided on buying a license this year.
-The State of Virginia not only loses a $94.00 license fee by my absence; a trip leads me to spend money in the local communities of Martinsville and Bassett. A tank of gas, meals, snacks and other amenities are purchased on a typical trip. On occasion, I stay overnight (okay, I'm embellishing, I stay at Al's but they don't need to know that).
-It is my desire to see an amicable agreement reached, which is beneficial to both anglers and kayak enthusiasts alike.
Bottom line, let me know if this is useful. I have no issues handing it off to Al. I am dropping by his house tomorrow to give him some tomato plants.
Yes. Key players are Delegate Morgan Griffith, Henry County Board of Supervisors - Jim Adams - chairman, Senators Warner and Kaine.
They all need to hear it and often.
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Quote from: VaTrout on April 21, 2016, 20:53:53 PM
Yes. Key players are Delegate Morgan Griffith, Henry County Board of Supervisors - Jim Adams - chairman, Senators Warner and Kaine.
They all need to hear it and often.
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Need some addresses.
Quote from: troutfanatic on April 21, 2016, 21:11:38 PM
Quote from: VaTrout on April 21, 2016, 20:53:53 PM
Yes. Key players are Delegate Morgan Griffith, Henry County Board of Supervisors - Jim Adams - chairman, Senators Warner and Kaine.
They all need to hear it and often.
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Need some addresses.
http://www.henrycountyva.gov/members (http://www.henrycountyva.gov/members)
https://morgangriffith.house.gov/contact/contactform.htm (https://morgangriffith.house.gov/contact/contactform.htm)
https://www.kaine.senate.gov/contact. (https://www.kaine.senate.gov/contact.)
http://www.warner.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contact (http://www.warner.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/contact)
And these guys are funding DRBA in Henry County:
http://www.theharvestfoundation.org/page.cfm/topic/contact-info (http://www.theharvestfoundation.org/page.cfm/topic/contact-info)
For those that decide to attend, I think it would be valuable to have some key talking points. The paddlers seem very well organized, and some of their advocates are also trout anglers who are very well aware of how trout fishermen can work around a four hour generation to continue fishing. Suggesting that such a generation plan will keep one from fishing may not fly with these folks. The old adage of don't try to bullshit a bullshitter comes to mind.
Based on the link below, the paddlers have been working on this for quite some time and seem to have their ducks in a row. I would hope that if representatives from the angler user group were offered the opportunity to speak, they will have something credible to offer.
http://www.henrycountyva.gov/news/details/id/67 (http://www.henrycountyva.gov/news/details/id/67)
So, for those that want to attend, does anyone have specific points we should be making, i.e. :
If 4 hours is too long, what would be acceptable and why?
If middle of the day is not acceptable, then when and why? Please keep in mind that we are attempting to compromise along with another user group.
If we have always asked for weekend generation in summer for the health of the fishery, how do we turn back now?
How exactly might the VDGIF stocking schedule be impacted by weekend generation?
Very good points, Troutrus!!!
Here's something I thought about last evening. Will the hypothesis hold water? Trout adversely affected, because of decreased availability of terrestrials during summer 4 hour pulse. I have no idea.
After talking with Doug last evening, it was confirmed to me that the latest VDGIF recommendation was a one hour pulse on a weekend day. Why one hour on one day? What was the impetus for this recommendation? Were the VDGIF biologists not only concerned with elevated downstream temperatures but also the trophic dynamics of the fishes, particularly during the summer?
Every angler that visits the Smith after the yellows have departed understands the value of terrestrials. I dare say that during the sweltering summer that the ants, beetles, moths, and such are the predominant brown trout food source, at least in the upper/middle reaches of the river.
More of Mudwall's questions:
1. Would the summer terrestrials be as available to the browns during the pulse? Is the flow too much during a pulse to allow successful feeding on land-based critters? Where do the browns hold during a pulse?
2. If not, how would a weekend 4 hour/day summer fast affect the browns?
3. Broad question: How would this length of pulse, affect the brown feeding behavior?
4. How does a 4 hour pulse in the middle of the summer day, during the hours of peak terrestrial activity, affect brown trout growth?
Anecdotal bits and pieces are all we have at this time. VDGIF biologists should be consulted.
Good points Mudwall. I agree that if any credence is to be given regarding trout feeding regimen, it would carry much more weight if it was to come from a fisheries biologist, as anecdotal evidence from anglers is nothing more than a fancy phrase for bullshit to many folks.
I honestly do not believe the folks you all are trying to move give two shits about the fishery, or any matters regarding biology. Pony shows are all the rage while any sincere enjoyment of nature is a thing for oldish eccentric weirdos.
Someone needs to point out the kayakers are not legally obligated to purchase any licenses or permits. Fisherman pay out of every orifice, particularly those out of state purchasers. Any bureaucrat with an IQ over 74 should understand the significance of these facts.
It may also be worth mentioning that the lower Smith has enough natural flow to supplement the low water release making it feasible for the lower to be floated at any time. Low water however extends trip times and kayaks may suffer more wear and tear, but a 700cfs release is not essential at all on the lower river. Smith at Philpott Dam drains 214 sq. miles, at Martinsville, 379 sq. miles, and over 500 @ Mitchell Bridge. The average output for the middle and lower Smith is 1 cfs per sq. mile. I've floated a rocky section of the Dan just upstream of Pine Hall @ 150 cfs with only minor problems. Also, American Whitewater's river steward suggested the standard 700+cfs release is not really a safe flow for rank newbs in the Bassett area.
One concern about not having releases on weekends or one weekend day is the following. Tubing services are a great alternative to kayak rental service. Short shuttles, no concerns about flows....cold release water is clearly not your friend. A successful tubing enterprise on the lower may cause more problems than the current proposed release schedule.
If the yuppie yakker crowd holds as much political sway up there as they do down here, good luck. Not that I have anything against kayaking, it's fun and gets folks outside. But they definitely trump the fishermen with the powers that be here in most situations.
Quote from: Yallerhammer on April 25, 2016, 06:50:17 AM
If the yuppie yakker crowd holds as much political sway up there as they do down here, good luck. Not that I have anything against kayaking, it's fun and gets folks outside. But they definitely trump the fishermen with the powers that be here in most situations.
haha you've never seen the Smith River yakker crowd. They usually have more beer in their boat than Drifts does.
I need to get on the record here........................ This may clarify the original post / email authored by SRTU President Doug Jessie
We are not anti-paddler and we do not mind sharing the river with canoes, kayaks, rafts, etc. I personally enjoy seeing them and view them as another group who can be called on to help protect such an important resource. What we do object to is the way the current weekend flow proposal was developed.
Up to this point no one from SRTU or as far as we can determine any other fishing group was consulted. They did take a letter (probably written by me) from several years back asking for summer weekend generation as proof local fishermen supported the proposal. They did the same with a many years ago discussion with DGIF biologists on the same subject. No one from SRTU or regional DGIF biologists were invited to the table as stakeholders when the current plan was discussed. DGIF was invited to a meeting last month but by then the plan was already in place.
From what I have heard and read from several sources I believe the purpose of the meeting is to tell us what has already been decided and how great it will be for everyone concerned - I hope I am wrong. As Doug said, we are willing to listen and hope there is still room for negotiation and compromise.
The only way we will effect change is for us to make the effort to show up at the meeting Thursday evening - You can bet the folks who want 2 days, 4 hours right in the middle of the day; 52 weeks of the year will be there.
And show up early, find out what room the meeting is being held in and get to that room.
Couple of more points to add to Al's.
1. They argue that the cold water pulses are good for the fishery. That is true for June-September. Not necessary for the fishery in the other 8 months.
2. Paddlers do not pay a fee. Fishermen do. Stocked trout fisherman pay even more. The Smith is the only stocked trout water in Henry County. The weekends are when most people fish. And yes, many can move and fish around a 4 hour generation. But many cannot (disabled, elderly, youth), and many just want to fish their favorite spots. These folks are denied this opportunity in the middle of the day, both days.
3. VDGIF will probably change their stocking program. We know some scheduled stocking did not take place recently because of the current sluicing. They took the fish elsewhere.
4. There is no science behind this plan. They are basically running an experiment with Harvest Foundation money. Are they monitoring bug density before and after, water temperatures up and down the river before and after? No. Their science claims are lip service.
5. Every thing they point to as a success is boats at the ramp, that's the economic impact. Hold on, this is not the New, The Gauley, The Nolichucky, The Ocoee. The paddlers are probably from with in 50 miles. The go home to their houses and eat. They are shopping locally anyhow. The Fisherman traveling from all over the states of VA and NC have a bigger economic input.
See you there.
This is a worthwhile effort.
I agree that bringing acid to discussion is a losing battle. I also agree that the kayak crew is much better organized. I think we can change that.
First thing up, the scientific perspective. Hiner asks some good questions. At least he and one other member of this forum have studied fish a fair amount. Is there anyone taking up that argument that has the educational clout? What about George (last name?) the biologist? Is he involved in the discussion? Between talking to Hiner and George during last August's shock session, I got the idea that both of them know the river fairly well and at least have hypotheses on some of the mysteries of growth, reproduction and forage. Also G, you fish it, you know stuff... speak up. Maybe you find the basis of a PhD study in natural select versus microhabitat.
I mentioned before, I am in finals week as I type. I'd like to be at this tomorrow, but I can't. I can and will make the next one if it will continue to be a worthwhile effort. I may be able to fill my car with a few others that would like to weigh in.
It's almost May and VADGIF has not received their $94.00 from me yet. I have only fished twice because of conditions.
Add to that (not sure how relevant) that I fished last month and caught a rainbow in a place that has never been stocked (just below fish camp, old special regs). The broken dam winter free flow has really dispersed fish. Not sure if that is good or bad.
I have fished around generation, absolutely; but I am disabled. I need a staff under moderate current and I'm not willing to risk messing my body up more than the Army already did for me.
What I'd ask of the group: Someone who attends tonight, Al/Doug, whoever, post a synopsis of what transpired and hit me with some points for the next go-round and I'll do it if it appears more pressure will help.
So did anyone go?
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@Dougfish went, we're still waiting for a report!
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There were less people at the meeting than we expected. Maybe 20ish folks, paddlers and fisherman, split about 50/50. Rocky from the COE and Tiffany and Brian from DRBA were there.
The DRBA program manager, Brian, gave a presentation detailing how they had facilitated a meeting of all stakeholders which had resulted in the plan which was put in place on a trial basis late last summer – see press release here http://www.henrycountyva.gov/news/details/id/67 (http://www.henrycountyva.gov/news/details/id/67)
At the meeting we were told some new info. The Henry County Public Works Authority (Water Department) had requested authority to withdraw more water from the Smith and if their request is approved it will necessitate a short period of weekend flows all year anyway. We were told that is why we had weekend generations from Jan. until the fire. It appears that Henry County can satisfy their needs either day or night so the the only question to be determined is when will the flows occur. The paddlers would be happy if they occurred during mid-day both Saturday and Sunday. The fishermen would be happy if they occurred at night. SRTU has always encouraged multi-users on the river. The more people use the river, the more monitoring and improvements it gets. We have also pushed for, along with VDGIF, a weekend summer burp of water to prevent downstream temperatures from spiking before generation starts Monday afternoon. It is obvious a compromise would be best for all sides. We and others have proposed, and we think it will receive favorable consideration, a midday flow on Saturday and an evening flow on Sunday - or perhaps a reverse of that scenario.
The next question is how long of a burp or increased water flow is necessary. It was said that Henry County can probably satisfy their needs with an hour of increased flow. This would also be sufficient to cool downstream water temperatures during the summer. The paddlers need more more like 2 hours to get the "water up" for a good downstream run. They would also like more then that so they are not always in danger of running out of water. They feel 4 hours of high water is a good run. Fishermen on the other hand see 4 hours of high water as incrementally closing off about a third of the 31 miles of trout water to waders as it moves downstream . Could we compromise to 3 hours? Or maybe give them 4 hours during peak paddler season in the summer and cut it back during the off season? Hell, will the lake have enough water in the summer to do any weekend generations? Nobody knows until July gets here.
We left the meeting somewhat encouraged. There are two more public input meetings scheduled for May 12th and June 9th. SRTU will have a presence at each of them. We welcome any and all to join us. We did get to express our thoughts after the DRBA presentation. So did the paddlers. Hopefully the meeting format will stay the same. The locations have not yet been announced.
Fast forward.....
Since the meeting ended some new info has floated our way. Supposedly Henry Co. asked for the weekend releases in an application to satisfy a 15 year plan of growth. I guess you need to get your ducks in a row early. They do not need the extra water now and are not even equipped to handle it. Furthermore, improvements to their systems, including better water storage, may mean the need never happens. But they have to have the application in and approved just in case. So why was COE/Dominion generating all winter? The truth is unknown. At least by us. There are enough questions and changing narratives to be suspicious. We are going to continue to ask to be one of the stakeholders (the paddling community has representation). The paddlers at the meeting were great folks, BTW. They learned a bit from us and we learned a bit from them. I believe most folks see the benefit of a compromise.
I'm going to post up email addresses of folks you should write to. More later.
Glad to hear this is not one sided. Thanks for the update Doug!
Great info Doug! I will plan to make it to the next meeting.
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Quote from: Dougfish on May 04, 2016, 12:27:57 PM
There are enough questions and changing narratives to be suspicious.
I was at this meeting, and I was suspicious 5 minutes into the gathering.
"Rocky" Rockwell's (Corps) comment about the invertebrates downstream "baking" in the summer heat is a tenuous hypothesis at best. Also his comment about the best data available on the Smith is DEQ's TMDL work was a head scratcher. Add that to the vibe of some of the so-called local authorities' skepticism of VDGIF data and recommendations and the perceived warm-and-fuzzy relationship between Dominion, Corps, local authorities, etc. and you get a very apprehensive rumbling in your gut.
The second public input meeting that was scheduled for tonight has been postponed to May 18th at 6-7:30 at EMI Imaging in Bassett (Old Bassett High School).
If anyone wants to meet at Papa's Pizza at 5 for a pie and a brew, see you there.
PS: Prior family commitment I forgot about. I will not be there. Come out and represent!
Bump to the top - "ANY RIVER CAN FLOAT A KAYAK....BUT NOT EVERY RIVER CAN SUPPORT A TROUT FISHERY"
The DRBA Smith River Flows Public Input meeting has been rescheduled to May 18th and will be held at EMI Imaging in Bassett (The old Bassett High School) from 6-7:30 pm - We have learned a few things since the first meeting. It is important that fishermen show up so their voices can be heard. Several folks from SRTU plan to have an early dinner at Papa's Pizza about 5:00 pm prior to the meeting (EMI Imaging is just down the street near the Bassett Public Library / Stoplight)
Is there anyone we can write to in lieu of being there? I live 2.5 hours away and can't get off work early, but it is important to me to make our voices heard. Thanks for all who have put so much work into this!
I'll be there tomorrow.
Quote from: revfox on May 17, 2016, 17:56:08 PM
Is there anyone we can write to in lieu of being there? I live 2.5 hours away and can't get off work early, but it is important to me to make our voices heard. Thanks for all who have put so much work into this!
Here's a link to the survey.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/PhilpottDam (https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/PhilpottDam)
I completed the survey. Thanks for the link.
Done. Thanks!
Finished the survey, sorry I won't be there for the meeting.
Done.
Survey done
Looks like the Martinsville bulletin picked up the story.
http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/news/trout-fisherman-voice-their-concerns-over-weekend-philpott-generation/article_21fae5e8-1d6a-11e6-b2b5-a79344f6a90e.html
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Quote from: TroutMedic on May 19, 2016, 09:27:25 AM
Looks like the Martinsville bulletin picked up the story.
http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/news/trout-fisherman-voice-their-concerns-over-weekend-philpott-generation/article_21fae5e8-1d6a-11e6-b2b5-a79344f6a90e.html (http://www.martinsvillebulletin.com/news/trout-fisherman-voice-their-concerns-over-weekend-philpott-generation/article_21fae5e8-1d6a-11e6-b2b5-a79344f6a90e.html)
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Be wary of any person that highlights himself by using "I", when representing an organization in a public discussion.
Also, the continuing warm-and-fuzzy, ego stroking behavior between the alliances, that includes Dominion, should be scrutinized with upmost pessimism.
I'll bet my left nut there is an egg-sucking dog in the henhouse! The anglers, that pay some of the bills, are fixin' to get screwed on this one. A paddler pays nothing!
have to agree with you bug-man.........like I said the COE......Dominion & Brian Williams seem to have all the chips right now. TU---VDGIF---fishermen and more local business interest receiving money from the fishermen might open some eyes.