Pretentious Snobby Bastard Fly Fishing!

Fly Fishing BS => The Gravel Bar => Topic started by: flatlander on May 04, 2010, 12:22:35 PM

Title: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: flatlander on May 04, 2010, 12:22:35 PM
I thought the failed Times Square bombing was going to be the work of some lone malcontent--probably a pissed off white guy that the media would link to the tea party movement.  Now it looks like they are arresting people in Pakistan in addition to the primary suspect they caught at Kennedy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/04/AR2010050400192.html?hpid=topnews (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/04/AR2010050400192.html?hpid=topnews)

Is it me, or are Islamic terrorists just incredibly inept?  Maybe we just keep getting lucky (911 aside), but it seems like most of these attempts wind up being duds.  I don't know anything about explosives.  Is constructing and detonating a bomb as difficult as it appears?  The IRA seemed pretty good at it.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: flip on May 04, 2010, 14:40:19 PM
Let us be thankful they are no smarter than the camels they ride
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Woolly Bugger on May 04, 2010, 21:56:19 PM
Quote from: flip on May 04, 2010, 14:40:19 PM
Let us be thankful they are no smarter than the camels they ride hump

fixed
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Al on May 05, 2010, 08:08:42 AM
Quote from: Flatlander on May 04, 2010, 12:22:35 PM
I thought the failed Times Square bombing was going to be the work of some lone malcontent--probably a pissed off white guy that the media would link to the tea party movement.  Now it looks like they are arresting people in Pakistan in addition to the primary suspect they caught at Kennedy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/04/AR2010050400192.html?hpid=topnews (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/04/AR2010050400192.html?hpid=topnews)

Is it me, or are Islamic terrorists just incredibly inept?  Maybe we just keep getting lucky (911 aside), but it seems like most of these attempts wind up being duds.  I don't know anything about explosives.  Is constructing and detonating a bomb as difficult as it appears?  The IRA seemed pretty good at it.

I teach a class related to this stuff out on Ft Bragg/Pope AFB and in last nights session we discussed this incident. We have been very lucky up to this point. It has just been BS luck that the "underwear bomber" and now the "Times Square bomber" were not able to pull it off. Even without a successful detonation they have cost us millions of dollars and changes in the way we go about our daily lives.

I have said this before (and caught flack for it) - We are at war with Islam. We could pull out of Iraq & Afghanistan and give up our support of Israel - the only thing that would change would be that Israel would cease to exist. We (The "West") would still be at war with Islam. When we turned tail and got run out of South Vietnam the Communists were happy to just savor their victory. Our current conflict is different - they will not stop until we all either die or bow to Mecca. 

Unfortunately many of our elected leaders fail to see or more likely do not want to see this reality. We are not going to be able to negotiate or talk our way out of this one.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Trout Maharishi on May 05, 2010, 08:57:10 AM
Al has this one nailed. We have been lucky as hell. The idiot at Fort Hood could have made a much bigger mess as well. This bomb and the underwear bomber incident could have killed thousands. The way the present administration has treated Israel is ridiculous. We kiss nations asses like Iran and Saudi Arabia's and won't even have a meaningful dialog with the only real friend we have in the region. Our own president is pro Muslim because he is one. Between him and the rest of the clowns running the show our safety is far more compromised and in jeopardy than the average person realizes.  They are taking over Europe simply by population growth. WAKE UP THEY ARE TRYING TO KILL US AND WON'T STOP UNTIL WE ARE DEAD OR KNEELING ON A RUG WITH THEM!

Almost forgot, this guy was already on a watch list. Who the hell was watching him? He was also "screened" upon his last return from Pakistan. How in the hell does someone like him end up making a bomb and for all practical purposes detonating it? Or security that this president has appointed might be better suited to working security at WalMart.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Beetle on May 05, 2010, 09:21:19 AM
You know I agree with you both- but I will take exception to the notion that we are at war with Islam.  This simply isn't true.  We are at war with extremists who just happen to be Muslims.  There are millions upon millions of Muslims who disagree with the extremists.   Many emigrated here to the US and other countries to get away from these terrorists.   Muslim extremists want us to say that we really are at war with Islam so they can push their cause.  We don't need to pour gas on their fire.





Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Al on May 05, 2010, 09:40:34 AM
Quote from: Beetle on May 05, 2010, 09:21:19 AM
You know I agree with you both- but I will take exception to the notion that we are at war with Islam.  This simply isn't true.  We are at war with extremists who just happen to be Muslims.  There are millions upon millions of Muslims who disagree with the extremists.   Many emigrated here to the US and other countries to get away from these terrorists.   Muslim extremists want us to say that we really are at war with Islam so they can push their cause.  We don't need to pour gas on their fire.

When I see those "millions upon millions of Muslims who disagree with the extremists" stand up and denounce their fellow mulsims and actively involve themselves with helping us fight them then I will stop saying we are at war with Islam. Sure, we have a few that speak out but very few     - as far as nation states helping us, they are happy to take our money but they are secretly and often not so secretly saying "atta-boy" to the so called extremists.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Trout Maharishi on May 05, 2010, 09:42:31 AM
Beetle you may be right, but I have a hard time agreeing with that. Yes there may be a few muslims who disagree with the agenda of the radical segment, but where are they? Why don't I hear anything from them, why are they silent? I believe that just like the radical segment their beliefs are that you are either Muslim, or you are an infidel and must obey or be killed.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: bugman on May 05, 2010, 10:06:56 AM
Al, I will admit I know very little about worldly affairs.  But how can we be at war with an entire religion?  Or could we be at war with certain Islamic factions? I don't have a clue; I am just asking.

As for the so-called non-violent Muslims remaining silent, perhaps they are very similar to the non-violent Christians.  I also fail to keep abreast of most of the violence of so-called extreme Christian factions.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall too many outcries from the "sane" peaceful Christians when one of these wingnut Christian entities goes off the deep end. 

On another front, because I am well past the big 50, I must ask, is it wisdom or paranoia that comes with age?
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Al on May 05, 2010, 11:08:23 AM
Quote from: bugman on May 05, 2010, 10:06:56 AM
Al, I will admit I know very little about worldly affairs.  But how can we be at war with an entire religion?  Or could we be at war with certain Islamic factions? I don't have a clue; I am just asking.

As for the so-called non-violent Muslims remaining silent, perhaps they are very similar to the non-violent Christians.  I also fail to keep abreast of most of the violence of so-called extreme Christian factions.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't recall too many outcries from the "sane" peaceful Christians when one of these wingnut Christian entities goes off the deep end. 

On another front, because I am well past the big 50, I must ask, is it wisdom or paranoia that comes with age?

You are most likely right when you say we are at war with certain faction of Islam - but the silence of the others makes you wonder.

We certainly denounced Timothy McVeigh and what he did. We also applaud when the FBI take down some of these so called militia groups. I just wish the media would give as much attention to Islamic training camps right here in the United States as they do "right wing nut" groups.

Age related wisdom or paranoia - maybe a little of both. I like to think of it as being based on experience and years of watching history unfold.

Gotta go - I need to check on the expiration date of my Y2K food and meet with the contractor who is building the bomb shelter in my backyard ;D
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: flynhokies on May 05, 2010, 12:59:07 PM
Quote from: bugman on May 05, 2010, 10:06:56 AM
Al, I will admit I know very little about worldly affairs.  But how can we be at war with an entire religion?


uh, crusades?
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: bugman on May 05, 2010, 15:40:24 PM
I'm a little fuzzy on my history, but the crusades were expeditions to deliver the Holy places from the prophet of Islam as part of some fulfillment of a promise made to God, correct?  And I may be mistaken but I think the other side was ultimately declared the victor. 

Flynhokies, when they discover that the holy angling places are occupied by some religious group, you can sign me up for the crusade.  We probably know each other and I am darned easy to find.  Keep me posted.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Beetle on May 05, 2010, 16:23:04 PM
Al- I think the "silence of others" is just not newsworthy or interesting to the American media.   But to clarify my earlier comments, I believe that most Muslims don't disagree with the ends- just the means. 

http://www.freemuslims.org/issues/terrorism.php

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/30/opinion/islam-and-the-opposition-to-terrorism.html
(note the date 9/30/01)

Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: flynhokies on May 05, 2010, 17:55:38 PM
Quote from: bugman on May 05, 2010, 15:40:24 PM

Flynhokies, when they discover that the holy angling places are occupied by some religious group, you can sign me up for the crusade.  We probably know each other and I am darned easy to find.  Keep me posted.


deal...i'm in
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Al on May 05, 2010, 21:06:24 PM
Quote from: Beetle on May 05, 2010, 16:23:04 PM
Al- I think the "silence of others" is just not newsworthy or interesting to the American media.   But to clarify my earlier comments, I believe that most Muslims don't disagree with the ends- just the means. 

http://www.freemuslims.org/issues/terrorism.php

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/30/opinion/islam-and-the-opposition-to-terrorism.html
(note the date 9/30/01)

Here's part of the problem - I copied this from one of the links you provided..............

"So far, the few Muslims who choose to speak up against militant extremist Islam have faced threats of violence and accusations of being anti-Islam. Even members of this Coalition face threats as they carry out their work. In effect, the message disseminated by radical Muslims is that merely discussing Islamic terrorism is to be construed as an attack on Islam."

We could debate this until the cows come home - it is a mess and is not getting any better. It is only a matter of time before we have another attempt - Our luck with inept terrorists can only last so long.

Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: 5xTippett on May 05, 2010, 22:51:24 PM
"We are at war with Islam"  I agree with Al.  (Sorry Beetle).  I despise those towel wearing, camel riding peasants.  I also agree with TM about our present administration treating our only friend in the region like dirt, while sucking up to our enemies.  While it may be true that all Moslems are not terrorists it certainly seems that for the moment at least, all terrorists seem to be Moslems.  It is certainly no surprise that I agree with Al and TM. It is rare that I disagree with Beetle!  As for the crusades, we had those suckers won, until as usual the Europeans started squabbling among themselves.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Trout Maharishi on May 05, 2010, 23:48:17 PM
It's not just the US that is at war with Islam. Christians and every other religion is at war with them. Take a look at all the other countries around the world that aren't even primarily Islamic countries that have experienced terrorist attacks. So the thing about just defending their turf from the infidel invaders doesn't quite fly with me. Canada, Spain, Turkey, England, Indonesia, Australia, Russia, Philippines, India, several countries in Africa, and on and on. These are just off the top of my head.

Look at the way they treat their own women. They don't want them to go to school, or have anything to do with any man that isn't Muslim. I saw an estimate that 5000 honor killings took place last year. These are fathers, husbands, brothers killing their own female family members, they are animals. Just last week some nut job in NY strangled his wife and cut her head off.  They love that beheading thing, just look at how many times they have video taped it so they can watch it and get their rocks off later.

An image I will never forget is when they showed the images of the planes flying into the twin towers, every rag head in Bagdad ran out into the street yelling God is great and shooting some kind of weapon up in the air. I mean I saw kids in the crowd with AK-47s. I didn't see much hand wringing or remorse from the Muslim world then. They kill 3000 innocent people and all I hear was how we deserved it and brought it onto ourself. The whole Muslim world was shown celebrating.

The president of Iran says he wants to destroy an entire nation, and all we do is try to get him to talk to us. I don't believe all Muslims are bad, just most. Tell ya what, just point out the bad ones and those are the only ones we'll kill.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Beetle on May 06, 2010, 07:25:44 AM
Fair enough.  We could caveat this for eternity.  To Ben's point, the terrorists are all Muslim so that speaks volumes.

I don't know if you guys read the Wall St Journal, but of late there have been some very large, expensive ads purchased by various groups pleading with the President to support Israel and open the dialogue.

The latest was yesterday and was signed by approximately 75-100 former armed services leaders.  All of them were high ranking offices including several Major and Lieutenant Generals.  This administration is so frikking arrogant.  I wonder where this country has gone when you have to advertise (to the tune of a couple of hundred thousand dollars) to express your opinion.

Mark my word- amateur hour is coming to an end and it can't come soon enough. 
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Trout Maharishi on May 06, 2010, 08:49:49 AM
If we had their mentality there wouldn't be a goat left alive in 3 or 4 or these Muslim countries like Iran, Afghanistan, and Iraq. We have shown great restraint, at the cost of US military lives to try and only kill the "bad" guys. If we turned the dogs loose, we could make parking lots out of these places and commit genocide on an entire population. We have in my opinion, in light of everything that has happened been very merciful, even to the extent of helping them rebuild what we have been forced to destroy. None of them would have been killed if they had simply gone about practicing  their religious faith in a non violent way.


BTW, almost forgot, sure hasn't been much news from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan lately ??? Have we just become occupiers?

Sorry about the rant Beetle, I still love you and want you to take me to Basin Creek ;)
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: troutphisher on May 06, 2010, 09:03:16 AM
It's funny now, but I knew it then.

Obama was touted as the new "peace maker" his foreign policy was a strong suite, even though he no apparent experience.

Now we are seeing the results of no experience. Alienating only friend we have in the region, to promote his own image.

He was going to "restore" the respect of US around the world, open dialog with our enemies and the terror would stop.


But hey it's "change".............
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: 5xTippett on May 06, 2010, 14:00:35 PM
"Sorry about the rant Beetle, I still love you and want you to take me to Basin Creek "  TM, Doesn't Basin Creek flow off of Brokeback Mountain?  Watch your back Beetle. >:D  Moving right along, we have definitely been at war with the entire Moslem religeon at certain times.  They poured into Spain from Northern Africa and conquered southern Spain in fairly short order, not long after the religeon was established.  I am writing from memory and don't have the exact dates, but they were heading on into France ( any reason for wanting to conquer France escapes me at the moment, unless you are partial to snails and cheese).  Charles Martel (Charlemagne's grandfather) defeated them at the battle of Tours.  It was looking pretty serious up until that point.  It took the Spanish a long time to conquer their country back, a piece at a time.  The Moslems have never converted any place peacefully.  They have always converted by the sword. One of their main historical weaknesses has been they have always been divided into factions.  The Spanish used that to their advantage, as did the crusaders.  TM, I also remembered the celebrating on TV by those smelly little peasants after 911.  I remember watching particularlly a fat, ugly, Palestinian woman.  I was hoping something would fall on her head while I was watching.  Bugman, to compare a few Christian nut cases to a religeon composed of about 95% nutcases is ludicrous. 
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: Beetle on May 06, 2010, 14:24:13 PM
Despite my disdain for Anderson Cooper and Bill Maher, I thought this was interesting given the discussion here:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/showbiz/2010/05/05/ac.bill.maher.intv.cnn?hpt=C2

PS I can't believe TM gave up Basin Creek......the holiest of all waters    o-o



Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: flip on May 06, 2010, 14:49:05 PM
5x, yes, it did take the Spanish a long time to drive the Moores out of Spain. I think the Mores ruled most of Spain for about 250-300 years until the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella.

There are radicals in every culture. Christian, Jewish, Buddist and Islam, each has its own extremist. I do understand the Palestinian point of view. Israel was created in in 1948 and forced the people out of their homes and off the land. The people went to "refugee camps" When the leaders became vocal about wanting their property and rights back, they were killed. I do however disagree in the methods they use to try to regain their rights. there is too much bad blood now, there will never be peace there.

This is a mirror image of American history.The Europeans came here and forced the tribes off their land or killed them. In later times the nations were forced into "reservations" by the American government. Leaders who demanded rights for their people were assassinated.

What can we really do? We are damned if we do and damned if we don't. We cant negotiate with the radicals. The more we kill, the more who become radical.  If we don't go in and take Pakistan the Extremist will eventually take over. If we do go into Pakistan, most every Muslim in the world will join with the extremist. To be honest, I am more worried about Pakistan's nukes falling into the wrong hands.
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: flatlander on May 06, 2010, 15:05:41 PM
Quote from: Beetle on May 06, 2010, 14:24:13 PM


PS I can't believe TM gave up Basin Creek......the holiest of all waters    o-o

F*!%$#& Hotspotter!
Title: Re: Arrests in Pakistan
Post by: diaz dassie on May 06, 2010, 23:02:35 PM
What America needs is a Margaret Thatcher. If they boys cant do it a iron fisted crazy ass ol skool lady can... >:D