Pretentious Snobby Bastard Fly Fishing!

Fly Fishing BS => The Gravel Bar => Topic started by: joe friday on May 10, 2016, 10:31:29 AM

Title: waterbugs?
Post by: joe friday on May 10, 2016, 10:31:29 AM

forgive me if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know enough about trout to tell me why don't they hit the waterbugs floating across the surface of the water? 


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Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Michael Toris on May 10, 2016, 10:36:39 AM
Quote from: joefriday on May 10, 2016, 10:31:29 AM

forgive me if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know enough about trout to tell me why don't they hit the waterbugs floating across the surface of the water? 


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Too hard to catch IMO. These guys make a living on top of the water where Mayflies, Caddisflies, Stoneflies, Midges, etc are eaten when they are most vulnerable (swimming to top of water, emerging on surface, or resting on water. They do not skate like the Hemipterans
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Grannyknot on May 10, 2016, 10:55:51 AM
water striders are some fast mofos.
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 11:02:42 AM
They taste bad - probably nothing to do with speed.   I have seen them in the gut contents of young-of-the-year smallmouth bass, but never in larger fishes.

"Fish do not appear to be the main predators of water striders, but will eat them in cases of starvation. Scent gland secretions from the thorax are responsible for repelling fish from eating them."

http://broom02.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Gerridae&item_type=topic (http://broom02.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Gerridae&item_type=topic)
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Michael Toris on May 10, 2016, 11:31:00 AM
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 11:02:42 AM
They taste bad - probably nothing to do with speed.   I have seen them in the gut contents of young-of-the-year smallmouth bass, but never in larger fishes.

"Fish do not appear to be the main predators of water striders, but will eat them in cases of starvation. Scent gland secretions from the thorax are responsible for repelling fish from eating them."

http://broom02.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Gerridae&item_type=topic (http://broom02.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Gerridae&item_type=topic)
I don't buy it. Plenty of other things are not edible and end up in the stomach contents (ie cigarette butts, sticks, seeds)
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Dougfish on May 10, 2016, 11:34:27 AM
Becha they'd hit a pink strider.
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Michael Toris on May 10, 2016, 11:38:10 AM
Quote from: Dougfish on May 10, 2016, 11:34:27 AM
Becha they'd hit a pink strider.
Hell yeah they would


Trout are dumb as fuck

Those bitches are just too hard to catch or they'd eat the shit out of em
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 11:41:43 AM
Quote from: wildmttrout on May 10, 2016, 11:31:00 AM
I don't buy it. Plenty of other things are not edible and end up in the stomach contents (ie cigarette butts, sticks, seeds)

You're kidding, right?

It is the same with Whirligig Beetle adults.

"Fish apparently learn to reject whirligigs on sight after eating Gyrinidae that are secreting gyrinidal."

http://www.cfb.unh.edu/StreamKey/html/organisms/OColeoptera/FAco_adult/FAGyrinidae/Gyrinidae.html (http://www.cfb.unh.edu/StreamKey/html/organisms/OColeoptera/FAco_adult/FAGyrinidae/Gyrinidae.html)
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Michael Toris on May 10, 2016, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 11:41:43 AM
Quote from: wildmttrout on May 10, 2016, 11:31:00 AM
I don't buy it. Plenty of other things are not edible and end up in the stomach contents (ie cigarette butts, sticks, seeds)

You're kidding, right?

It is the same with Whirligig Beetle adults.

"Fish apparently learn to reject whirligigs on sight after eating Gyrinidae that are secreting gyrinidal."

http://www.cfb.unh.edu/StreamKey/html/organisms/OColeoptera/FAco_adult/FAGyrinidae/Gyrinidae.html (http://www.cfb.unh.edu/StreamKey/html/organisms/OColeoptera/FAco_adult/FAGyrinidae/Gyrinidae.html)
Birds eat them

Why wouldn't fish?

I realize you have sources and I do not, but I just do not see a fish turning down a meal b/c 'it tastes bad'. They are opportunistic feeders.

But, I have never spotted a fish attempting to feed on them either. So whatever it is, it must be more than they cannot catch them.

I am just not sure.....
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 12:03:41 PM
Quote from: wildmttrout on May 10, 2016, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 11:41:43 AM
Quote from: wildmttrout on May 10, 2016, 11:31:00 AM
I don't buy it. Plenty of other things are not edible and end up in the stomach contents (ie cigarette butts, sticks, seeds)

You're kidding, right?

It is the same with Whirligig Beetle adults.

"Fish apparently learn to reject whirligigs on sight after eating Gyrinidae that are secreting gyrinidal."

http://www.cfb.unh.edu/StreamKey/html/organisms/OColeoptera/FAco_adult/FAGyrinidae/Gyrinidae.html (http://www.cfb.unh.edu/StreamKey/html/organisms/OColeoptera/FAco_adult/FAGyrinidae/Gyrinidae.html)
Birds eat them

Why wouldn't fish?

I realize you have sources and I do not, but I just do not see a fish turning down a meal b/c 'it tastes bad'. They are opportunistic feeders.

But, I have never spotted a fish attempting to feed on them either. So whatever it is, it must be more than they cannot catch them.

I am just not sure.....

Repellency is common in many insects – all kind of true bugs, certain swallowtails, Monarchs, some beetles and ants have such a bad taste or smell,  it discourages potential predators.  I know very little about plants, but I think many plants "taste" bad as well. 

I contacted EKU. I convinced them to refund your tuition, room and board, and the fees for all text books and supplies. 
You can thank me later. 
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Michael Toris on May 10, 2016, 12:09:50 PM
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 12:03:41 PM
Quote from: wildmttrout on May 10, 2016, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 11:41:43 AM
Quote from: wildmttrout on May 10, 2016, 11:31:00 AM
I don't buy it. Plenty of other things are not edible and end up in the stomach contents (ie cigarette butts, sticks, seeds)

You're kidding, right?

It is the same with Whirligig Beetle adults.

"Fish apparently learn to reject whirligigs on sight after eating Gyrinidae that are secreting gyrinidal."

http://www.cfb.unh.edu/StreamKey/html/organisms/OColeoptera/FAco_adult/FAGyrinidae/Gyrinidae.html (http://www.cfb.unh.edu/StreamKey/html/organisms/OColeoptera/FAco_adult/FAGyrinidae/Gyrinidae.html)
Birds eat them

Why wouldn't fish?

I realize you have sources and I do not, but I just do not see a fish turning down a meal b/c 'it tastes bad'. They are opportunistic feeders.

But, I have never spotted a fish attempting to feed on them either. So whatever it is, it must be more than they cannot catch them.

I am just not sure.....

Repellency is common in many insects – all kind of true bugs, certain swallowtails, Monarchs, some beetles and ants have such a bad taste or smell,  it discourages potential predators.  I know very little about plants, but I think many plants "taste" bad as well. 

I contacted EKU. I convinced them to refund your tuition, room and board, and the fees for all text books and supplies. 
You can thank me later.
Meh, I've moved on from silly little bugs. These questions simply are not interesting to me anymore and do not deserve my research time. I'll take your word for it, but in the end, it really doesn't make a great deal to me. It's a bug that doesn't get eaten. Doesn't really matter why.

Whether you like it or not, big data is the way of the future and eDNA is the vector to get there. My days of big pickups are over I am afraid; more numbers for me and less bugs.

What's funny is I never once was asked this question throughout my entire academic career.

Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Big J on May 10, 2016, 12:19:51 PM
Here is my question, how did the water striders develop the trait of tasting bad?  Natural selection over millions of years allow the bad tasting water striders from poor hygiene to survive while the good tasting water striders diminished?
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Michael Toris on May 10, 2016, 12:25:25 PM
Quote from: Big J on May 10, 2016, 12:19:51 PM
Here is my question, how did the water striders develop the trait of tasting bad?  Natural selection over millions of years allow the bad tasting water striders from poor hygiene to survive while the good tasting water striders diminished?
Better questions:

"Why are Water Striders found where they are and what do they actually mean?"

"Can we detect water strider DNA from water samples?"

"Why is Muddy such a hipster but will not acknowledge it?"
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 12:29:12 PM
Quote from: wildmttrout on May 10, 2016, 12:09:50 PM
What's funny is I never once was asked this question throughout my entire academic career.

Oddest question I was ever asked during my academic career was how often and specifically how did I masturbate.  I answered the face-to-face survey honestly, only to have the young student researcher run away.  To this day, I don't know if was fear, queasiness, suspicion, or the desire to try my methods that sent the young'un scurrying off like an Olympic sprinter. 

The next time you see and catch a Whirligig Beetle, squeeze it until the body juices squirt out its ass, then smell it.  Depending on your olfactics, it will likely smell like apples or pineapple. 

http://news.discovery.com/animals/bad.htm (http://news.discovery.com/animals/bad.htm)

Interesting article ---
--- makes me believe if Big J and I are fishing together and one of 5X's or OB's mountain lions stalk us, attempting to get a meal, I will be safe.  My marinating of nicotine and alcohol next to Jacob's clean, pure form will save me.  Any predator will know immediately from the smell that I would taste like garbage. 
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Big J on May 10, 2016, 12:34:29 PM
I thought Mountain Lions targeted the young, frail, slow, or injured? 

WMT's last question made me laugh.
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 12:57:45 PM
Quote from: Big J on May 10, 2016, 12:19:51 PM
Here is my question, how did the water striders develop the trait of tasting bad?  Natural selection over millions of years allow the bad tasting water striders from poor hygiene to survive while the good tasting water striders diminished?

Say what?  Did you just mention a millions-of-year's timeline and natural selection in your query? 

Jerry just rolled over in his grave!!!!!!

Hipster my ass!!!  I don't even like Sriracha!!!  Bite me!!
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Big J on May 10, 2016, 13:10:41 PM
I do believe in natural selection.  Natural selection causes certain traits to either increase or decrease in a population.  Polar Bears and strains of char and trout are good examples.  Natural selection does not lead to the magical creation of a new genetic trait. 

Sarcasm can be inserted into the other thing you mentioned.
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 10, 2016, 13:30:20 PM
Quote from: Big J on May 10, 2016, 13:10:41 PM
I do believe in natural selection.  Natural selection causes certain traits to either increase or decrease in a population.  Polar Bears and strains of char and trout are good examples.  Natural selection does not lead to the magical creation of a new genetic trait. 

Sarcasm can be inserted into the other thing you mentioned.

If you believe in NS then you believe in evolution, and if you believe in evolution then you believe all life on earth is related and can be traced back to common ancestral life that existed billions of years ago.

I am proud of you Jacob; you and I have come far.  We'll work on the creation myth later.  The big bang and abiogenesis are much easier to understand if you drink or take drugs, both of which you do not do.   No worries, we can work around it.  Jacob, have you ever shroomed? 
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Lithwan on May 10, 2016, 21:57:23 PM
The water bug question is a good urn. I've wondered the same myself.

Big J and Mr. Mudwall's exchange about epistemology regarding creation is by far deeper than anything I could have found on SEFFF. I'm glad I check in here from time to time -- far better than most discourse found on other forums.

It looks like Big J might believe in the supernatural... If so he should "shroom".
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Onslow on May 11, 2016, 04:30:06 AM
Quote from: joefriday on May 10, 2016, 10:31:29 AM

forgive me if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know enough about trout to tell me why don't they hit the waterbugs floating across the surface of the water? 


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I rarely see trout hit anything on top.  Unless I'm fishing the SF Holston drainage, on average I will observe one fish rise per day. 

I would venture to guess trout will readily consume these spiders if any happen to become injured from high water, or severe run-off conditions.


QuoteThese guys make a living on top of the water where Mayflies, Caddisflies, Stoneflies, Midges, etc are eaten when they are most vulnerable (swimming to top of water, emerging on surface, or resting on water. They do not skate like the Hemipterans

This observation is most relevant. 
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: JMiller on May 11, 2016, 06:57:42 AM
Quote from: Big J on May 10, 2016, 13:10:41 PM
I do believe in natural selection.  Natural selection causes certain traits to either increase or decrease in a population.  Polar Bears and strains of char and trout are good examples.  Natural selection does not lead to the magical creation of a new genetic trait. 

Just for the record, because I can't tell if you're joking or not, nobody claims natural selection leads to the creation of a new genetic trait.
New traits occur first as random mutations, then based on selective pressures of the environment, can spread through a population.
That's a not minor distinction, since it negates any need for use of terms like "magical" where not needed. 
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Grannyknot on May 11, 2016, 07:12:04 AM
how exactly does a posi trac rear end in a plymouth work?
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Dougfish on May 11, 2016, 07:30:41 AM
Quote from: Grannyknot on May 11, 2016, 07:12:04 AM
how exactly does a posi trac rear end in a plymouth work?

Thats magic.  y;
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Yallerhammer on May 11, 2016, 07:34:28 AM
Quote from: Big J on May 10, 2016, 12:34:29 PM
I thought Mountain Lions targeted the young, frail, slow, or injured? 

WMT's last question made me laugh.

I saw that in action once. A college class I was in went to the WNC Nature Center for a field trip. They have two panthers in a big enclosure with glass and chainlink down one side. They were both laying there absolutely unconcerned and ignoring all of us-until one girl who had broken her leg and was on crutches walked by. One of the panthers jumped up and stalked her all the way along the glass wall and chainlink fence. Gave her the creeps.
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Native Fisher on May 11, 2016, 07:58:20 AM
Quote from: Grannyknot on May 11, 2016, 07:12:04 AM
how exactly does a posi trac rear end in a plymouth work?
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Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 11, 2016, 08:25:33 AM
Man-o-man, I misjudged this one! 

I was sure I'd called the right play, with the fullback leading masturbation through the A gap for big yardage.  But no, the play was stuffed at the line, with more chat of Water Striders, genetic traits, random mutations, posi trac rear ends, and natural selection, for no gain. 

I was damned sure someone would chase the wanking theme.

Second and 10, I'll try again.

Many years ago, I wrote an article and submitted it to a respected fly angling publication.  It was titled 101 Ways to Fondle Yourself While Wearing Neoprenes; it was never published.

Don't over analyze the Strider conundrum.  They taste bad, end of story.   
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Big J on May 11, 2016, 08:35:32 AM
Quote from: JMiller on May 11, 2016, 06:57:42 AM

Just for the record, because I can't tell if you're joking or not, nobody claims natural selection leads to the creation of a new genetic trait.
New traits occur first as random mutations, then based on selective pressures of the environment, can spread through a population.
That's a not minor distinction, since it negates any need for use of terms like "magical" where not needed.

Thank you for the correction, it is the genetic mutation that leads to a new useful trait.  The degrading of genetics through random insertion, duplication, or deletion to further and gain a new trait that is benefiting to the organism.

P.S. I want to fish your local for musky sooner then later.

P.P.S.  I left out the term magical.
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on May 11, 2016, 08:58:38 AM
I've taught my last class, entered my last grade, and now I am cleaning up my lab, where I've been for the last 34 years, so I have some time to reminisce.  Pondering certain turning points in my life, I thought of my last semester as an undergraduate and the public speaking class.  I'd avoided the required course for many years, intimidated, still self-conscience about my Appalachian twang.  The class was an eye opener, realizing I had a propensity for BS and gab. My last speech was a persuasive one on masturbation.  I researched the literature and uncovered some ground-breaking work by a UVA psychologist.  His name was Frank W. Finger!

Thinking back to Finger's work, I believe you guys fall into the group of UVA gals he surveyed.  You are embarrassed and ashamed, therefore you will likely fib, skewing the statistics.   

http://search.lib.virginia.edu/catalog/uva-lib:2158692 (http://search.lib.virginia.edu/catalog/uva-lib:2158692)

Beer makes confused males!!!!  Beer bottle masturbation!!!!

http://youtu.be/7nStp4urqcM (http://youtu.be/7nStp4urqcM)
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: Yallerhammer on May 11, 2016, 10:11:55 AM
No one is taking your masturbait.
Title: Re: waterbugs?
Post by: JMiller on May 11, 2016, 11:48:41 AM
Quote from: Big J on May 11, 2016, 08:35:32 AM


P.S. I want to fish your local for musky sooner then later.

P.P.S.  I left out the term magical.

Well you can keep "magical" to describe the local muskies.
And come on down. Actually noticed the first fishermen starting to arrive today for the Southern Classic.