Thought there was a band, turned out to be a candle light vigil for the troubles in Charlottesville -- they made themselves feel better
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170814/e8b0d61449ad46b745d0a70ce0244964.jpg)
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Really harshin on their mellow bruh
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Damn Keith. I'm surprised you'd go there. This could all be avoided if they'd just take the damn statue and put it in a museum. One that's funded by by the people that worship these statues.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/take-the-statues-down/536727/
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Quote from: troutfanatic on August 13, 2017, 21:45:37 PM
Damn Keith. I'm surprised you'd go there. This could all be avoided if they'd just take the damn statue and put it in a museum. One that's funded by by the people that worship these statues.
Speaking of museums - Here in Fayettnam we are lobbying for the state taxpayers to kick in 30+ million to build a Confederate War History Museum.
They say timing is everything and IMHO it is poor timing for NC and Fayetteville in particular to be building a state owned and operated Confederate War History Museum.
I'm good with it as long as they include a couple statutes of my wartime hero "Uncle Billy"
Hmmm. Semantics, eh?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-less-lovely-side-of-snowflake (https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/the-less-lovely-side-of-snowflake)
Quote from: Al on August 14, 2017, 07:42:27 AM
Quote from: troutfanatic on August 13, 2017, 21:45:37 PM
Damn Keith. I'm surprised you'd go there. This could all be avoided if they'd just take the damn statue and put it in a museum. One that's funded by by the people that worship these statues.
Speaking of museums - Here in Fayettnam we are lobbying for the state taxpayers to kick in 30+ million to build a Confederate War History Museum.
They say timing is everything and IMHO it is poor timing for NC and Fayetteville in particular to be building a state owned and operated Confederate War History Museum.
I'm good with it as long as they include a couple statutes of my wartime hero "Uncle Billy"
Greensboro museum had a great collection of Civil War guns and uniforms and it was the main display in the place, but now they've "expanded" their content and have cut the gun display to 1/4 of what it used to be.
The John and Isabelle Murphy Confederate Firearms Collection is a must for those interested in the distinctive style of these antique firearms. It features over 150 fine examples of longarms from every major Confederate armory. For those who crave works of art, the exhibit includes contemporary paintings by Don Troiani, and is supplemented by Civil War artifacts from our permanent collection. (http://greensborohistory.org/exhibits/murphy-confederate-firearms)
Quote from: Woolly Bugger on August 14, 2017, 05:04:00 AM
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/take-the-statues-down/536727/
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What's not to like about that?
I've been down the road before. Allow people to self identify with their prejudice. If they want to put a big old confederate flag on their porch- by all means, self identify. Just don't put any of it on public land and stick taxpayers with the bill.
Quote from: NCsporksman on August 13, 2017, 21:32:57 PM
Really harshin on their mellow bruh
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https://youtu.be/bYJMtn6IJeE
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Quote from: Al on August 14, 2017, 07:42:27 AM
I'm good with it as long as they include a couple statutes of my wartime hero "Uncle Billy"
Sherman was a freaking racist and warrants no "of their time" free pass or statue!
"I like n*ggers well enough as n*ggers, but when fools and idiots try and make n*ggers better than ourselves, I have an opinion", said Uncle Billy.
https://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2010/06/uncle-billys-racism/57886/
Despite being a retired military officer, I never developed this penchant for studying the Civil War. Sure I did staff rides and I was good at analyzing the tactics and offering alternatives if I got stuck with the losing side, but I was always pretty meh about it. One guy was of interest to me- John S. Mosby. He was a pioneer in unconventional warfare and ran a raider unit that wreaked havoc on the union supply lines. Otherwise... meh.
So a question, at what point does the statue battle end? Is it over when all the CSA monuments are removed? What about Sherman? Sounds pretty bad to me. What if we go deeper than just the CSA? Lincoln is praised as one of our greatest presidents because of the war.
Did he fight it to free slaves, or maintain the Union? Well, it started as maintaining the union, but support was sluggish, especially in the northern-most states where the abolition movement had its roots. He needed that support and he needed that money. In 1862 the Union was losing the war and volunteers were diminishing. By July of 1863, we had draft riots in NYC. He thought the war would drag on for longer than it did, and freed slaves would make good soldiers. Lincoln is known to have not been an abolitionist. In the debates with Douglass, he stated he was not in favor of white-black equality and basically wanted to send them off to colonies away from the US. Lincoln history is what we make of it. Hero? Yes. Great president? Yes. A pillar of equality? Probably not. take that statue down!
Let's go back further. Washington. He offered freedom to slaves that fought for independence, but owned slaves himself. How about Jefferson? What would Sally Hemmings say about all of this? take the statues down. I can name dozens of other celebrated founders who owned slaves.
My point? The statues being protested are all too often on public land, and taxpayer funded. I get it, put them in museums that are privately funded and be done with it.
But, when and where does it end, and what does it achieve?
Al,
Before good ol' Fayetteville goes building that museum, they may need to kick some funds up to tear this place down.
http://www.fayobserver.com/article/20160226/news/302269875
Quote from: troutfanatic on August 14, 2017, 20:52:30 PM
Despite being a retired military officer, I never developed this penchant for studying the Civil War. Sure I did staff rides and I was good at analyzing the tactics and offering alternatives if I got stuck with the losing side, but I was always pretty meh about it. One guy was of interest to me- John S. Mosby. He was a pioneer in unconventional warfare and ran a raider unit that wreaked havoc on the union supply lines. Otherwise... meh.
So a question, at what point does the statue battle end? Is it over when all the CSA monuments are removed? What about Sherman? Sounds pretty bad to me. What if we go deeper than just the CSA? Lincoln is praised as one of our greatest presidents because of the war.
Did he fight it to free slaves, or maintain the Union? Well, it started as maintaining the union, but support was sluggish, especially in the northern-most states where the abolition movement had its roots. He needed that support and he needed that money. In 1862 the Union was losing the war and volunteers were diminishing. By July of 1863, we had draft riots in NYC. He thought the war would drag on for longer than it did, and freed slaves would make good soldiers. Lincoln is known to have not been an abolitionist. In the debates with Douglass, he stated he was not in favor of white-black equality and basically wanted to send them off to colonies away from the US. Lincoln history is what we make of it. Hero? Yes. Great president? Yes. A pillar of equality? Probably not. take that statue down!
Let's go back further. Washington. He offered freedom to slaves that fought for independence, but owned slaves himself. How about Jefferson? What would Sally Hemmings say about all of this? take the statues down. I can name dozens of other celebrated founders who owned slaves.
My point? The statues being protested are all too often on public land, and taxpayer funded. I get it, put them in museums that are privately funded and be done with it.
But, when and where does it end, and what does it achieve?
Yes, Lincoln used freeing the slaves as an excuse for war, just like Bush talking about freeing the Iraqi people. Keep in mind that slavery was still legal in a lot of the north, and several states that were fighting for the Union held slaves that weren't freed until after the war. The southern slaves were already free long before the northern slaves were.
The Civil War was a complicated thing, and it wasn't about one issue. It was also a horrible thing that cost a lot of blood and misery on both sides.
I had ancestors who died with confederate uniforms on. They had never owned a slave, nor would I guess that they really cared about it one way or the other. They fought because there was a war going on in their homeland, and an invading army was raiding and killing. To tear down that statue is a spit in the face to those who were not involved in the political machinations that started the war, but who lost their lives anyway just trying to protect their land and families and people.
The disturbing part of all this to me is the attempt to erase history. Like it or not, it happened. And we should remember it and acknowledge it-the good, the bad, and the ugly. And hopefully learn from it. Because like it or not, it is a part of our history and a part of why we are who we are. It changed us fundamentally as a country from a looser union of independent states much like the EU, to a strong central government-controlled nation where the individual states have lost most of their influence. That is another thing that most don't realize.
I see many parallels between confederate statues being torn down in the name of political correctness run amok; and the Taliban destroying the ancient Buddha statues and anything else that didn't agree with their worldview. Enforcement of groupthink is dangerous, no matter which group is doing it.
Another thing that most don't understand at all is that confederate flags and memorials aren't seen as racist or white supremacist symbols by your average southerner, nor or such ideas held or championed by most of us. They have been appropriated and used as symbols of hate, but keep in mind that the KKK flies the American flag at every rally, too. And the folks who aren't southerners or don't know anything about history can't see them as anything else except racist symbols. Believing that Southern = racist is a sign of a closed mind and just as hateful of a stereotype as the other stereotypes the same folks decry.
I think most people actually believe now that the Civil War was all about: North=good, not racists; south=bad, racists. The truth is that almost everybody at the time was a racist, regardless of what part of the country they lived in. Robert E. Lee was no more racist than Abraham Lincoln, if you read what they wrote at the time.
I think we would be better off if the Nazis, the white supremacists, the anti-fa, the BLM-ers, and the KKK were all in the bottom of the ocean. To hell with all the radical protesters on all sides whose agenda seems to be either to make everybody think like they do, or simply to keep trouble stirred up between people who have other things to worry about.
Your reply is exactly why I asked, when and where does it end?
Anything can be deemed offensive by someone. So today it's Lee, tomorrow it's Washington. How about LBJ? He got us in a helluva war and he was not a pillar of equality either.
You cite the Taliban destruction of the Buddha statues at Bamian? In the austere practice of wahabbist or deobandi Islam, any depiction of human form is considered unholy, and should be destroyed.
Will we be accommodating our Muslim immigrant population that hold this belief too?
Once again, where does it end?
QuoteI think we would be better off if the Nazis, the white supremacists, the anti-fa, the BLM-ers, and the KKK were all in the bottom of the ocean. To hell with all the radical protesters on all sides whose agenda seems to be either to make everybody think like they do, or simply to keep trouble stirred up between people who have other things to worry about.
Absolutely, but it seems far too many want to pick a side. Extremes in any ideology is bad.
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
Robert E. Lee was no more racist than Abraham Lincoln, if you read what they wrote at the time.
I don't know; we might want to re-evaluate this comparison.
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2007/06/24/the-private-thoughts-of-robert-e-lee
Plus Abe never owned slaves and was never indicted for treason.
Sorry gents, I am very particular when it comes to my idols.
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
The truth is that almost everybody at the time was a racist, regardless of what part of the country they lived in.
We might want to weigh this profound statement as well.
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
The southern slaves were already free long before the northern slaves were.
Damn Yaller, every time I read your post I become more of a cynic. I want to meet your middle school history teacher.
http://slavenorth.com/
What/who the heck do we believe? Interesting topic – made me search some stuff.
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on August 16, 2017, 10:33:21 AM
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
Robert E. Lee was no more racist than Abraham Lincoln, if you read what they wrote at the time.
I don't know; we might want to re-evaluate this comparison.
https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2007/06/24/the-private-thoughts-of-robert-e-lee
Plus Abe never owned slaves and was never indicted for treason.
Sorry gents, I am very particular when it comes to my idols.
Yeah. I been wondering where you've been. Lee owned slaves. It's documented that he ordered harsh punishments for three that escaped and were caught. Regardless, Lincoln isn't a saint. I'll accept the lesser evil.
Heard on national talk radio today (No it wasn't Rush) that while we are tearing down all these monuments to our "immoral" wars we need to look at the Vietnam Memorial - Someone suggested sandblasting it and using the remaining blank granite as the canvas for a huge painting to depict our diversity and how we are working to bring justice and love for all.
Those who sincerely yearn for national unity, labor to bring people together to build cohesive communities and civic minded organizations have not the time for such vacuous gestures of indignation, and self pity. Anyone who is supreme/superior does not have to declare that one is such, and the counter protesters in this latest debacle are equally retarded. Let the Neos eat Oreos.
The world is unfair. Life is unfair. I'm annoyed by folks who wear bill caps in restaurants. I'm revolted those who speak ghetto, or excessive hick. I hate people who spit tobacco juice on the floors of new homes being built. And if I wanna hear bugga bugga music, I'll crank up the jammies in the privacy of my home! I"m too old, and tired to give a big flappy damn if I offended anyone. Its called discrimination. Get over it.
Quote from: Onslow on August 16, 2017, 20:06:11 PM
Those who sincerely yearn for national unity, labor to bring people together to build cohesive communities and civic minded organizations have not the time for such vacuous gestures of indignation, and self pity. Anyone who is supreme/superior does not have to declare that one is such, and the counter protesters in this latest debacle are equally retarded. Let the Neos eat Oreos.
The world is unfair. Life is unfair. I'm annoyed by folks who wear bill caps in restaurants. I'm revolted those who speak ghetto, or excessive hick. I hate people who spit tobacco juice on the floors of new homes being built. And if I wanna hear bugga bugga music, I'll crank up the jammies in the privacy of my home! I"m too old, and tired to give a big flappy damn if I offended anyone. Its called discrimination. Get over it.
I doubt if those implicated feel their outrage is vacuous.
You have a powerful talent that I was sure was unique to your God, the ability to gaze into the souls, minds, and spirits of others and measure the quantity, quality, and intent. Kudos!
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
Another thing that most don't understand at all is that confederate flags and memorials aren't seen as racist or white supremacist symbols by your average southerner, nor or such ideas held or championed by most of us. They have been appropriated and used as symbols of hate, but keep in mind that the KKK flies the American flag at every rally, too. And the folks who aren't southerners or don't know anything about history can't see them as anything else except racist symbols. Believing that Southern = racist is a sign of a closed mind and just as hateful of a stereotype as the other stereotypes the same folks decry.
I see it like this. If the SC Capital Building flew a Taliban flag or Liberals ride around in pick-up flying a giant Taliban flags out the back, most everyone will be offended. Well this is what a Confederate Battle flag seems like to a Black person. I grew up in rural NC and I know and have known plenty of rednecks that hate black people and tell nagger jokes, etc etc. These are also the guys with Confederate flags outside there house, license plates, etc etc. So now if you are black person, you associate this flag and "monuments" with racist people and a regime that wanted to keep you ancestors enslaved. Even if you don't find if offensive others do. If your proud of your southern heritage fly a flag with a bowl of grits on it or something.
Quote from: Onslow on August 16, 2017, 20:06:11 PM
I hate people who spit tobacco juice on the floors of new homes being built.
Guilty! I usually try to keep it inside the wall though.
Quote from: Onslow on August 16, 2017, 20:06:11 PM
Those who sincerely yearn for national unity, labor to bring people together to build cohesive communities and civic minded organizations have not the time for such vacuous gestures of indignation, and self pity. Anyone who is supreme/superior does not have to declare that one is such, and the counter protesters in this latest debacle are equally retarded. Let the Neos eat Oreos.
The world is unfair. Life is unfair. I'm annoyed by folks who wear bill caps in restaurants. I'm revolted those who speak ghetto, or excessive hick. I hate people who spit tobacco juice on the floors of new homes being built. And if I wanna hear bugga bugga music, I'll crank up the jammies in the privacy of my home! I"m too old, and tired to give a big flappy damn if I offended anyone. Its called discrimination. Get over it.
0:0
Quote from: troutfanatic on August 17, 2017, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: Onslow on August 16, 2017, 20:06:11 PM
The world is unfair. Life is unfair.
0:0
The world is not unfair. Life is not unfair. Tackle life and the world as if you were any other critter walking the face of the earth, neither inferior nor superior, and you might understand. Only because we humans have evolved with a sense of selfishness do we even consider fairness. The universe, our world, mother nature, doesn't give a shit about fairness -- balance is difficult among so much randomness.
Peace, you fellow like-species
Mud, don't go getting all old, and flat on us. I expect much more feisty replies from you. Do I need to rile Al up?
cliffs notes on this thread pls
Quote from: Grannyknot on August 17, 2017, 14:08:57 PM
cliffs notes on this thread pls
Man is terrified. Panic wins.
Kind of like Moby Dick.
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on August 17, 2017, 10:25:51 AM
Quote from: troutfanatic on August 17, 2017, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: Onslow on August 16, 2017, 20:06:11 PM
The world is unfair. Life is unfair.
0:0
The world is not unfair. Life is not unfair. Tackle life and the world as if you were any other critter walking the face of the earth, neither inferior nor superior, and you might understand. Only because we humans have evolved with a sense of selfishness do we even consider fairness. The universe, our world, mother nature, doesn't give a shit about fairness -- balance is difficult among so much randomness.
Peace, you fellow like-species
I'm with Muddy and Onlow on this. The world and life is unfair if sit around and mope about your lot in life.
I'll be the first to admit that we as Americans are lucky. Many a time I was overseas and saw something which made me whisper a silent prayer thanking God for allowing me to be born in the USA. We all have our stories but I have got to tell you both my wife and I came from very humble beginnings. My wife did not think they were poor even though they used an outhouse and did not have electricity. My background was even more humbler than that - we knew we were poor.
My motto is "today is the 1st day of the rest of your life - make the most of it"
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on August 16, 2017, 14:20:13 PM
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
The southern slaves were already free long before the northern slaves were.
Damn Yaller, every time I read your post I become more of a cynic. I want to meet your middle school history teacher.
http://slavenorth.com/
What/who the heck do we believe? Interesting topic – made me search some stuff.
Tear down your strawman, Mudwall. I'm referring to the Union states that still held slaves during the Civil War. The Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 didn't include the slaves in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri, which were all northern states fighting on the Union side, where slavery was still legal until after the war.
Slavery wasn't widespread in the North during the war, but it wasn't illegal, either. Slavery disappeared from the industrial states first, and lasted the longest in the agricultural states. It wasn't outlawed in the Union slave states until the 13th amendment passed in 1865.
Slavery was not criminilized in some African countries until the early 2000s.
QuoteSlavery was not criminalized in some African countries until the early 2000s.
It is still practiced in some areas of Africa and the Middle East.
Elsewhere...
I saw in my news feed that some activists began digging up Nathan Bedford Forrest. I'd say he was a pretty evil man. He was the first grand dragon of the klan. I did some reading on him out of curiosity. It seems he repented towards the end of his life. Does that negate the evil deeds of earlier?
Desecrating graves apparently isn't an act of hate or immorality in the self-rightous eyes of some.
And what would be the purpose for such moronic behavior?
I guess that is my question.
is it a cathartic experience? Does it mean racism ceases magically?
My honest question is what in the actual fuck does this achieve? It's an exceptional distraction.
You must realize that most "activists" seem to be people who are dumb as a rock, perpetually angry at the world, easily led, and governed completely by emotion instead of logic. They don't really care what the cause is or if it is worthwhile, as long as they get to bitch about and destroy something. I guess somehow in their minds, they really believe that all racism was caused by the Civil War; and if all Confederate monuments are torn down and every trace of the Confederacy is removed, then it never happened, and racism and injustice will magically cease to exist.
If racism and injustice did magically end tomorrow, the same folks would find something else to be all tore up about.
People on the book of face do not like my analogy of Auschwitz still standing as a UN protected historical site.
from 1940-1945 about ~1.1 million people died there. Mostly European Jews, but many others that the Nazis deemed unfit for their Utopian vision.
When I remind them that survivors are the ones who want it up, they don't know what to say.
I'd like to hear what others have to say about Nathan Bedford Forrest.
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 18, 2017, 11:06:52 AM
You must realize that most "activists" seem to be people who are dumb as a rock, perpetually angry at the world, easily led, and governed completely by emotion instead of logic. They don't really care what the cause is or if it is worthwhile, as long as they get to bitch about and destroy something. I guess somehow in their minds, they really believe that all racism was caused by the Civil War; and if all Confederate monuments are torn down and every trace of the Confederacy is removed, then it never happened, and racism and injustice will magically cease to exist.
If racism and injustice did magically end tomorrow, the same folks would find something else to be all tore up about.
That's mighty white of you to say.
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 18, 2017, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on August 16, 2017, 14:20:13 PM
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
The southern slaves were already free long before the northern slaves were.
Damn Yaller, every time I read your post I become more of a cynic. I want to meet your middle school history teacher.
http://slavenorth.com/
What/who the heck do we believe? Interesting topic – made me search some stuff.
Tear down your strawman, Mudwall. I'm referring to the Union states that still held slaves during the Civil War. The Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 didn't include the slaves in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri, which were all northern states fighting on the Union side, where slavery was still legal until after the war.
Slavery wasn't widespread in the North during the war, but it wasn't illegal, either. Slavery disappeared from the industrial states first, and lasted the longest in the agricultural states. It wasn't outlawed in the Union slave states until the 13th amendment passed in 1865.
Strawman? I did not intentionally misrepresent. You should have stated 'border states' and not "the northern". Plus there's much grey area and debate when it comes to these states – divergent interests, pro or anti-slavery, agriculture vs industry.
I think you repeated your confusing claim. "Slavery wasn't widespread in the North during the war, but it wasn't illegal, either." I believe slavery officially ended in the northern states well before the conflict started. Again, the confusion might be between border vs northern.
I appreciate that you are at least analyzing the history, and delicately defending the southern chronological mentality. Honestly, I have no appreciativeness on most anything typically defined as southern, nor do I hold any semblance of esteem for most anything defined as northern.
What I do find fascinating is that both sides were sure they had God (the same God) on their side, and obviously felt their side was in the right. It might be the same bullshit today; I bet the white racist believe they have God by their side. And the silence of the Christian Right on the latest crap is deafening. Believers, correct me if I am wrong.
Treason and slavery would have would have been the proverbial straws for me back in 1861, I think. I would like to believe I would have followed the logic of old Newt, but one never knows.
The whole present day dialogue (and even the bullshit from both sides) is healthy in my opinion. Honestly, I don't believe there are any more racist today than there were 10 years ago. They've simply wormed their way from under yonder rock and are now a bit more visible, for whatever reason. Something or someone perhaps has empowered them.
Peace.
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on August 18, 2017, 12:45:13 PM
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 18, 2017, 07:28:47 AM
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on August 16, 2017, 14:20:13 PM
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
The southern slaves were already free long before the northern slaves were.
Damn Yaller, every time I read your post I become more of a cynic. I want to meet your middle school history teacher.
http://slavenorth.com/
What/who the heck do we believe? Interesting topic – made me search some stuff.
Tear down your strawman, Mudwall. I'm referring to the Union states that still held slaves during the Civil War. The Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 didn't include the slaves in Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri, which were all northern states fighting on the Union side, where slavery was still legal until after the war.
Slavery wasn't widespread in the North during the war, but it wasn't illegal, either. Slavery disappeared from the industrial states first, and lasted the longest in the agricultural states. It wasn't outlawed in the Union slave states until the 13th amendment passed in 1865.
Strawman? I did not intentionally misrepresent. You should have stated 'border states' and not "the northern". Plus there's much grey area and debate when it comes to these states – divergent interests, pro or anti-slavery, agriculture vs industry.
I think you repeated your confusing claim. "Slavery wasn't widespread in the North during the war, but it wasn't illegal, either." I believe slavery officially ended in the northern states well before the conflict started. Again, the confusion might be between border vs northern.
I appreciate that you are at least analyzing the history, and delicately defending the southern chronological mentality. Honestly, I have no appreciativeness on most anything typically defined as southern, nor do I hold any semblance of esteem for most anything defined as northern.
What I do find fascinating is that both sides were sure they had God (the same God) on their side, and obviously felt their side was in the right. It might be the same bullshit today; I bet the white racist believe they have God by their side. And the silence of the Christian Right on the latest crap is deafening. Believers, correct me if I am wrong.
Treason and slavery would have would have been the proverbial straws for me back in 1861, I think. I would like to believe I would have followed the logic of old Newt, but one never knows.
The whole present day dialogue (and even the bullshit from both sides) is healthy in my opinion. Honestly, I don't believe there are any more racist today than there were 10 years ago. They've simply wormed their way from under yonder rock and are now a bit more visible, for whatever reason. Something or someone perhaps has empowered them.
Peace.
OK, if you must nitpick. Now, which side of the war were those states on- the Union, or the Confederate? If they were fighting for the Union, they were part of the north. I have never heard the war described as North vs. South vs. Border States. They were on one side or the other-supposedly the anti-slavery side. I will not waste any more time debating this.
I do agree with most of the rest of your statement, except for probably the treason aspect. At that time, the US was a looser confederation of sovereign states, more akin to the EU than our modern centralized government. I think most people of the time thought of themselves as say, a Virginian or South Carolinian first, and then an American. Their allegiance usually went with their state. There was less than a hundred years of national identity at that time, but the individual states had existed as colonies long before.
Compare the military units of the time, for example-the 3rd Illinois or the 12th NC or such compared to our modern 101st Airborne, etc. People were mostly fighting for their states. I believe this sentiment was more prevalent in the south than the north, to be fair.
To clarify, I am not defending slavery or saying either side was right or wrong. They both had their faults, and a lot of normal people suffered for the political views of both sides, as is usually the case in most wars.
Quote from: Aka on August 18, 2017, 11:57:15 AM
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 18, 2017, 11:06:52 AM
You must realize that most "activists" seem to be people who are dumb as a rock, perpetually angry at the world, easily led, and governed completely by emotion instead of logic. They don't really care what the cause is or if it is worthwhile, as long as they get to bitch about and destroy something. I guess somehow in their minds, they really believe that all racism was caused by the Civil War; and if all Confederate monuments are torn down and every trace of the Confederacy is removed, then it never happened, and racism and injustice will magically cease to exist.
If racism and injustice did magically end tomorrow, the same folks would find something else to be all tore up about.
That's mighty white of you to say.
I also include the white supremacists, neo-nazis, and right-wing activists of that ilk under the same description.
Most of us, whether black, white, conservative, or liberal; don't have the luxury of running around being activists and protesting everything. We are busy making a living and worrying about more important things than perceived social injustices of any sort. Radical activism is stupid and counter-productive, no matter where it comes from.
Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 18, 2017, 13:14:45 PM
OK, if you must nitpick. Now, which side of the war were those states on- the Union, or the Confederate? If they were fighting for the Union, they were part of the north. I have never heard the war described as North vs. South vs. Border States. They were on one side or the other-supposedly the anti-slavery side. ....
I do agree with most of the rest of your statement, except for probably the treason aspect.
No, let's "nitpick" some more. We're (at least I am) learning here.
http://www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/exhibits/lincolndelcivilwar/
http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/stagser/s1259/121/7590/html/0000.html
http://history.ky.gov/landmark/kentuckys-neutrality-during-the-civil-war/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_secession if you believe Wikipedia
As for the treason question, there's been mucho debate on this – tidbits everywhere. I assert treason.
http://www.debate.org/debates/According-to-the-Constitution-the-South-committed-treason-in-the-Civil-War/1/
I believe it is a good thing that American struggles with guilt associated with slavery. Too bad no one else does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6KYQNXZwMI
Good point.
I cannot declare with any amount of certainty slavery is dead in the US. 19th century style plantation slavery is dead, but by most measures, slavery still exists in the poultry processing lines, and in the produce fields of Cali. It simply has be rebranded as something different. Most American consumers are OK with it.