• Welcome to Pretentious Snobby Bastard Fly Fishing!!!!. Please login or sign up.
September 21, 2021, 15:03:50 PM

News:

As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases.


Auto Co Execs.

Started by troutrus, November 20, 2008, 18:15:40 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

troutrus

With leadership as stupid as this, is there any wonder why the US auto industry is in the toilet?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/19/AR2008111903669.html


Woolly Bugger

November 20, 2008, 18:38:11 PM #1 Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 18:40:07 PM by Woolly Bugger

I find nothing wrong with Executives flying on Corporate Jets!

I suppose you would have them book their flights with Captain Kirk  :j

Guests are not allowed to view images in posts, please Register or Login

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Woolly Bugger

I'm betting they didn't travel alone... could have been a group of 4 to 8 from each company...

and once you go corp jet you never go back .... until you have to....

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Beetle

I discussed this with Mrs. Beetle this morning.  I explained to her that I am certain that our astute politicians willl look into this....nevermind the fact that they are flying around on corporate America's jets too......


cmiller51h

Quote from: Woolly Bugger on November 20, 2008, 21:43:38 PM

I'm betting they didn't travel alone... could have been a group of 4 to 8 from each company...

and once you go corp jet you never go back .... until you have to....

I think it's time that they have too! Take a new car. It's hard to sell a product that's made by people making $80 an hour and sell it to someone that makes $10-$12 an hour! The math just dont work. Now they want the $12 an hour joes to bail their asses out?! I'm still pissed over the 1st bank bailout. It went NOWHERE FAST!Let's face it, this country is going down the drain at a very fast pace and corporate America and big government did it to us. And I dont just mean one party! There's enough blame to go round for everyone! Until we stop sending our jobs overseas, importing a bunch of junk from 3rd world countries and go back to doing what we do best...being Americains, we're going to keep sliding into the hole (a very deep one at that!). We should have voted with our brains and our wallets! Vote out ALL of the idiots and start over. Most politicians cant run businesses, schools (their own lives!)or anything else productive to this country and WE vote them in and give THEM the ability to spend OUR money on STUPID WASTFUL SHIT! People, we got to change the way we do business. Smaller government, more money into AMERICAN JOBS, quit giving tax breaks to companies who sent jobs overseas, do away with unions, their time has past. So yea, I think they should have hitched a ride on the Enterprise with Kirk! Just my .02.

"Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way" GEN George S. Patton, 3rd Armor Commander

Peddler

Quote from: cmiller51h on November 24, 2008, 07:28:20 AM

I think it's time that they have too! Take a new car. It's hard to sell a product that's made by people making $80 an hour and sell it to someone that makes $10-$12 an hour! The math just dont work. Now they want the $12 an hour joes to bail their asses out?! I'm still pissed over the 1st bank bailout. It went NOWHERE FAST!Let's face it, this country is going down the drain at a very fast pace and corporate America and big government did it to us. And I dont just mean one party! There's enough blame to go round for everyone! Until we stop sending our jobs overseas, importing a bunch of junk from 3rd world countries and go back to doing what we do best...being Americains, we're going to keep sliding into the hole (a very deep one at that!). We should have voted with our brains and our wallets! Vote out ALL of the idiots and start over. Most politicians cant run businesses, schools (their own lives!)or anything else productive to this country and WE vote them in and give THEM the ability to spend OUR money on STUPID WASTFUL SHIT! People, we got to change the way we do business. Smaller government, more money into AMERICAN JOBS, quit giving tax breaks to companies who sent jobs overseas, do away with unions, their time has past.

Except for the 'class envy' expressed at your neighbors who might earn a better wage than you, your post is what I've been saying for the past 30 years or so.

We can't retain the title of richest and most powerful nation if we don't MAKE a fucking thing! How else did we beat the crap out of those crazy-ass square-headed Nazi's in Germany but for our manufacturing capacity! In Michigan and elsewhere, it was at the auto  manufacturing plants that those bombers were built that fucked-up Dresden and Berlin! We've pissed that capacity away. What do we do now, beg other countries to make our munitions?

Growing up, we already HAD the much-praised 'service economy'. The BIG difference is we also had a strong manufacturing economy! Many, many jobs were to be had but sharing a bit of the wealth with the common Joe consumer didn't sit right with those on Mohagany Row! They wanted it ALL. Now they have it all... EXCEPT consumers!

American business used to have that 'Can Do' attitude, now they're just full of excuses and sob stories if they can't do the only thing they seem capable of in this new-age, inbred world of bean-counters... outsource and downsize!

It's high-time tax breaks weren't just given to people who need them least and don't produce a fucking thing! Give them as Reagan did, to those who invested in THIS country by building plants HERE and hiring people HERE. It sure fuck worked well for us before!

The early bird may get the worm,
but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Silver Creek

Quote from: Peddler on November 24, 2008, 09:38:02 AM

We can't retain the title of richest and most powerful nation if we don't MAKE a fucking thing!

Agree.
Quote from: Peddler on November 24, 2008, 09:38:02 AM

How else did we beat the crap out of those crazy-ass square-headed Nazi's in Germany but for our manufacturing capacity! In Michigan and elsewhere, it was at the auto  manufacturing plants that those bombers were built that fucked-up Dresden and Berlin! We've pissed that capacity away. What do we do now, beg other countries to make our munitions?

Disagree.

The USA has the best weapons and soldiers in the world. If there is a next war, it will either be nontraditional in which case, tanks and planes do very little OR it will be traditional in which case it will be over before any country has the time to turn an auto industry into making munitions. In either case, the argument for maintaining an auto industry to make weapons is false in this day when aircraft, carriers, missiles and tanks are more important. Of those 4 weapons systems, only tanks are likely to be made by an auto industry and when you are in a tank battle you need them right away.

The war will be over before an auto plant can make a single tank. It's the 21st century and not the mid 20th century. In this century, there is no time to crank up a production line to make munitions.

A strong aerospace industry, not an auto industry, is the most important  factor in military might.

Where I strongly agree with you is that there is a need to maintain manufacturing, including an automotive industry that is owned by a US company. But to do that it needs to be competitive with the rest of the world. So how do we do that? Is a bailout the answer or is bankruptcy?

I honestly don't know.

A bailout will help our economy in the short term because it will keep autoworkers working. But I suspect that perpetuating the current system where the US auto industry has too much capacity, with too many workers, getting too many benefits needs a fundamental overhaul than cannot be done under a bailout.

With bankruptcy, the company does not disappear but is reorganized so that it can shed its debts including the huge obligations it gave to the unions. A bankruptcy will allow the industry to shed it's factories, workers, obligations and be more competitive with the foreign manufacturers. But I don't know if the economy can stand an auto industry bankruptcy without going into a depression that will ultimately do more harm regardless of the good it ultimately does for the auto industry.

Regards,

Silver

http://tinyurl.com/kkctayx


"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

fleming13

Silver I find your posts informative.  I do disagree with a few things though.  If nonone is buying cars now I do not believe they will be buying them in the spring.  Which is the time frame these companies seem to be giving as the goal for the bailout.  They want to buy time.  The economy cannot support these enourmous companies now and likely will be unable to in the near future.  So I would rather see them go down now than with loads of taxpayer money pumped into them.

Think long term here.  I heard this the other day and it makes lots of sense to me.  This relates to CM's post.  Consumer opinion of companies right now is in the dump.  Profit has become a bad thing, because it has been abused at our expense.  If the Gov continues to bail out companies and the public sees them in their private jets, lavish conferences, and big bonuses; then the public opinion of big business will continue to decline.  Once the public opinion is bad enough, and enough pressure is placed on Washington the Gov may start to develop this idea, because their constituents have it.  At the point where big business becomes evil in both the public and the Gov opinion we are finished.  No one will want to do business here.  I think one of the ways to keep this from happening is to let the poorest performing companies fail and not try to prop them up.  All 3 of the BIG 3 will not fail, someone will survive this mess.  Maybe even 2, but probably not all 3.

We have lived in a debt driven consumer fantasy land for quite a few years.  The continually expanding good economy is just not a reality.  The harder the Gov tries to shore that idea up the worse the final fall might be.  We had a good ride, but I think that ride is over.  Instead of pouring our money into trying to shore up poor business moves we need to move on into the future.  Just not sure what that will be, but we can't afford to make sure that noones fails anymore.  And this idea that noone should fail and that the consuer should run up their debt and ignore what is going on is rediculous.  Consumer confidence is shot and I think we need the paradigm shift from spend, spend at all costs, to getting back to using our money more effectively.  Spend some, save some, donate some, and keep your debt under control.

Everybody quiet, the Christian is in the room. 

I have been smited for the name of the Lord.

Silver Creek

Flemming13,

I believe that our economy is very fragile, more than it has been since the great depression. I also believe that in our economic system, there is a tipping point at which very little can be done to prevent a depression. What I don't know is how close we are to that tipping point.

If the reality of the situation is that our economy can stand the bankruptcy of our auto industry, then allowing them to go into bankruptcy is a viable and perhaps the best long term option. But I don't know that a bankruptcy would not cross over that tipping point, and ultimately do greater long term damage than a bailout.

Basically, we are at a point where we are playing "chicken" with our economy every time we decide whether or not the government is going to use the US Treasury to save an economic sector.

I was in favor of saving the banks because without finance the entire system fails. With the auto industry, I just don't know.

What I do know is that the old adversarial model is dead. Unions account only 12% of the USA workforce ( see: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm ). My view is that if there is to be a bailout, the government needs to stand up to both management and union. I don't know if that can happen in this new administration. The new administration will tell management that they are going to give up jobs and earnings, but can they tell unions the same thing?

Without less labor costs, the US auto companies cannot compete with the Toyota and Honda who are making better autos with the same American workers.

Regards,

Silver

http://tinyurl.com/kkctayx


"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

fleming13

I'm no economist, and I stayed home last night not at the Holiday Inn.  8)  But it has seemed to me for a while that we have built a system that could not support itself.  I worked in the high end furniture industry till June of this year.  I have been in multi million dollar homes and delivered some high dollar furniture to those folks.  Celebs, Ceo's, and owners of companies.  Those folks will probably be fine.  The problem I saw was the Joe upper middle class wanted  to live like them too.  And of course the market smilled and obliged them.  Cheap credit gave folks the impression that they could afford that ride too.  But it always seemed to me that those folks, upper mid, were shooting for the stars in what they bought and were barely affording it.  One glitch in their plans and its over for them.  I think what we are seeing and treating is the symptom, not the disease.  The disease is the inability for folks to accept their position as is, not try to keep up appearances.  This seems to me to have driven the home market, cars, electronics, etc.  Everything hinged on folks trying to make out like they were better off than they were, all based on credit.  Thay type of system is bound to fail.  Between that attitude in the middle class, and the very upper class never being satitfied with what they are making.  The middle class over extended the credit, the big money folks made up ways to make money, derivitaves, junk bonds, etc.  Seems that the system just could not take both at once.  One glitch and the wheels fell off.  The economy has been treated like a lot of folks personal finances have, stretched too thin.

Just a bit of personal info to tie this all together.  I choose to live in the mid, maybe lower mid, for my area.  My wife and I choose that she does not work so the she can raise our 2 kids.  We choose to keep tight track of our finances.  We chose to by less house than we could afford.  We also choose the try to give as generously as we can and save when we can.  The new van we purchased is our biggest liability outside of our home.  I'm perfectly happy too, particularly given the current conditions.  I'm not quite where I would like to be financially, but I'm not incredibely over extended either.  I have friends that are and it's tough watching those poor decision comeing home to roost so to speak.  I think the economist I heard a while back was right to say the best postition to be in now is cash and fetal.   :o

Everybody quiet, the Christian is in the room. 

I have been smited for the name of the Lord.

Silver Creek

November 24, 2008, 15:27:03 PM #10 Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 18:01:35 PM by Silver Creek

Agreed.

There is a book that was very popular years ago called the "The Millionaire Next Door", that describes the differences between the people that live beyond their means and those that live under their means.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

I didn't know that I was living according to their plan. Since I came from a lower middle class family, when I was in school, I lived the same way I did at home. When I was an intern physician, I lived like a student. When I was a resident physician, I lived like an intern. When I was a junior parner, I lived like a resident. And when I was a senior partner, I lived like a junior parner. When I retired at age 55, I had a higher net worth than my senior partner who worked 15 years longer than me.

The biggest influence on your spending, other than yourself will be your spouse, so choose who you marry very, very, carefully. If your SO spends more than they make or doesn't have any savings, you are in for a very difficult time.

Regards,

Silver

http://tinyurl.com/kkctayx


"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

Beetle

Sage advice Silver.  Everyone should read The Millionaire Next Door and then read The Millionaire Mind.

If you have 20-30 minutes you should also read this piece by Michael Lewis that explains the collapse of our economy.  It is amazing stuff but frightening.

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom/?refer=email


flatlander

I loved that book.  I loved the part where they first invited a group of millionaires to a hotel or conference room to be interviewed.  Thinking they were dealing with a bunch of high-society types, they put out a big spread of fancy food.  Then a bunch of guys driving pick-up trucks showed up and stared at their shoes not knowing what to make of the food ;D.  Classic.


fleming13

Silver, my wife is the reason we are in such good shape.   ;D  She's a financial wiz for us, or is it because she reigned in my spending money on toys?  Either way.

Everybody quiet, the Christian is in the room. 

I have been smited for the name of the Lord.

Silver Creek

For every significant purchase, I ask myself the future value of the money I am going to spend. I think every young person needs to do this.

If you want that new jacket that costs $200.00, what you need to ask is, what is that $200.00 going to be worth if you invest it rather than spend it? What will it grow to when you retire?

If you are in your 20's you likely have about 40 years of growth. Using the Rule of 72. You can figure out how much that $200.00 will be worth.

For the sake of simplicity, assume you can invest that money so that it grows at 7.2% a year. Using the Rule of 72, that means the money saved will double every 10 years. So 40 years gives you 4 doubles, which is 16 times (2, 4, 8, 16). $200.00 becomes $3,200.00.

In reality, you are not spending $200.00 for that jacket but $3,200.00 you could have in retirement. Put that $200.00 in a Roth IRA, and you don't even have to pay taxes on it. If you don't fully fund your Roth IRA, it is a net $3,200.00 you are spending when you buy that jacket.

Every non-necessary purchase needs to be evaluated this way.

Regards,

Silver

http://tinyurl.com/kkctayx


"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy


#CommissionsEarned