Smith River-- Tuesday

[Fire-Fly]

Honestly the Smith river could rival any stream in the east if some things were changed. If there were new generators put in then water levels may help. Right now when the dam generates there is around 1500 cfs and during nongenerations it drops to around 50 to 70 cfs. Thats a big difference. All the studies show that the problem with the fish is the constant shock of water and the fact that the water is around 40 degrees coming from the dam year round. New more efficient generators may only use half of the water to produce the same amount of power, so there mat be 500-700 cfs during generation and allow for more flows like closer to 100-200 cfs during non generation. Diverters would also help by releasing warmer water from higher up the dam.

[troutrus]

i wish there would just try and fix the fishery instead of stocking big fish in a put and take manner...

Amen to that, but the thing is the only way to fix the river is to improve water levels, that means the COE spending millions on replacing the generators that are more efficient as to have better water flows. We are working on it though, hopefully we will be getting some senate and congressional help after the first of the year. Cross your fingers.

BJ, appreciate your efforts on this. Do you have any real reason to believe that appropriations will be made available for this in 2009? I would like to think so.
By the way, when is the next SRTU meeting?

[Woolly Bugger]

i wish there would just try and fix the fishery instead of stocking big fish in a put and take manner...

Amen to that, but the thing is the only way to fix the river is to improve water levels, that means the COE spending millions on replacing the generators that are more efficient as to have better water flows. We are working on it though, hopefully we will be getting some senate and congressional help after the first of the year. Cross your fingers.

BJ, appreciate your efforts on this. Do you have any real reason to believe that appropriations will be made available for this in 2009? I would like to think so.
By the way, when is the next SRTU meeting?

I'm going to check my lottery ticket now....

[Fire-Fly]

troutrus... Its not that stockers wont live but they have a high mortality rate somewhere between 70-90%, thats leaves very few that do survive, but if 1000 are stocked then statistically you'll have around 300 survive. The larger fish require more food and are used to the past few years of getting fed pellets every day then getting stuck in a stream with no everday pellets, not many make it long.
As for getting some help, thats about all it is, were hoping to talk with some govt officials to see where that road leads but it wont be easy and chances are nothing will come of it.
As for the next SRTU meeting it is Dec 4 at 6 pm at Ranias, hope to see you there.

[cpranger]

Does everyone really think the generators are the source of all evil?  The same generators were in place in the 70's and the 80's when the fish population was by far excellent!  What the problem is as others seem to be going around is FOOD.  Does anyone remember the thousands of alewifes that used to come out of the turbines?  I belive if the state managed Philpott Lake as a forage fish fishery I believe everyone will be happy.  Lots of smaller fish for the bass and walleye as well as for the brown trout in the river. 
As for another point I have spent many years both bait fishing and Fly Fishing the Smith, and believe me I have caught my share of Browns bait fishing.  You can catch a bunch on a Rooster Tail.  I have never kept a brown in my life, and have even influenced other bait fishers to release them. 

Does anyone else believe me to say that FOOD is the problem.   

[Fire-Fly]

Does everyone really think the generators are the source of all evil?  The same generators were in place in the 70's and the 80's when the fish population was by far excellent!  What the problem is as others seem to be going around is FOOD.  Does anyone remember the thousands of alewifes that used to come out of the turbines?  I belive if the state managed Philpott Lake as a forage fish fishery I believe everyone will be happy.  Lots of smaller fish for the bass and walleye as well as for the brown trout in the river. 
As for another point I have spent many years both bait fishing and Fly Fishing the Smith, and believe me I have caught my share of Browns bait fishing.  You can catch a bunch on a Rooster Tail.  I have never kept a brown in my life, and have even influenced other bait fishers to release them. 

Does anyone else believe me to say that FOOD is the problem.   

There is plenty of food, there arent the good numbers of small baitfish however that comes back to the generations on the Smith, all the state biologist agree that the generation levels are the cause of the size of fish there. Maybe you need to come to one of the SRTU meetings and you can learn this from some very smart people.

[Woolly Bugger]

[attachment=1]

http://www.saw.usace.army.mil/philpott_216/WG4/Dr.%20Orth%20Data%20-%20seafwa%20paper%20history.pdf

[Fire-Fly]

[attachment=1]

http://www.saw.usace.army.mil/philpott_216/WG4/Dr.%20Orth%20Data%20-%20seafwa%20paper%20history.pdf

The part left out of that is that in the 70"s the water levels got low and the alliewives were being shredded as they passed through the gnerators and it was like chum for the fish, thats why the large fish were found behind the dam. A state biologist told me that there were rings of scariing on certain bones that represented the shock the fish were going through due to the generations, the fish never come out of a hibernation type feeding. Those large fish in the 70"s were a fluke, not a good healthy self sustaining river system.

[22midge]

Fire-fly its just my opinion from what I have heard but the problem with the fish is the temperature spikes and the growth of the fish is shown to have good and bad ranges in the otolith bones in the fish sampled by VDGIF.The biologist have said if they tried to create the same conditions in a controlled environment the fish would not survive.Because of the temperature condition the fish can maintain survival because the growth is down and the metabolism does not require the amount of food that normal conditions require.These fish are in as you say hibernation.Now for the river --the surge scours everything up river so the food can not exist and the temp.surge controls the cycles of life in most invertibrates.If you start about mid-range of the spec-regs you will see the food ten fold as you move down river.Give us a burp to keep the water temp up and trade the generator replacement with a series of weirs to keep the oxygen in the water mid-river down stream. Let the upper river continue to have the stocked rainbows to keep the fisherman happy and work down river for the brown trout.Talk to Scott-the Smith river biologist-- about the river.He has some idea as to what the river needs.

[Al]

This just released by VDGIF - might shed some light

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/video/?video=15

[22midge]

WOW now where did I hear that before?? Scott knows this river and I wish someone would listen to the on site biologist and quit studying what the VDGIF has said all along.

[5xTippett]

Peewee is right about listening to Scott.  He is an extemely nice guy and he knows this river and wants the best for it. 

[cpranger]

Thanks for everyones responses.  Just glad to see so many people interested in the health of this fishery.  Don't know if there is one cure all answer.  But didn't Scott himself say the larger trout have nothing to eat but other trout.  I don't know the answer, just had a suggestion.  Maybe I can develop a new fly that looks like alfwife chum .  Just kidding. 

[Fire-Fly]

Fire-fly its just my opinion from what I have heard but the problem with the fish is the temperature spikes and the growth of the fish is shown to have good and bad ranges in the otolith bones in the fish sampled by VDGIF.The biologist have said if they tried to create the same conditions in a controlled environment the fish would not survive.Because of the temperature condition the fish can maintain survival because the growth is down and the metabolism does not require the amount of food that normal conditions require.These fish are in as you say hibernation.Now for the river --the surge scours everything up river so the food can not exist and the temp.surge controls the cycles of life in most invertibrates.If you start about mid-range of the spec-regs you will see the food ten fold as you move down river.Give us a burp to keep the water temp up and trade the generator replacement with a series of weirs to keep the oxygen in the water mid-river down stream. Let the upper river continue to have the stocked rainbows to keep the fisherman happy and work down river for the brown trout.Talk to Scott-the Smith river biologist-- about the river.He has some idea as to what the river needs.

Pewee... Scott is where i get most of my info on the river as far as most aspects are concerned. He's the one one i heard mention of new generators to help solve some problems. As for invertebrates in the water, i've turned 100"s of rocks up behind the dam and they are full of bugs, and there is usually a good hatch right behind the dam when the generation stops. The only thing that will fix the problems of the Smith is MONEY.

[22midge]

Yes Fire-fly I agree and probably have turned over as many rocks but the generation surge and temperature spike has the fish holding on and slowed to the point of not being able to feed.The slow growth in the fish allows the smaller fish to survive on little or no food but the bigger fish has very little food to survive--listen to what Scott says--they have only each other for food.I agree with you totally and dont mean to seem like an argument but food & control of the temp spikes is what the river needs and if the generator replacement is the answer so be it but 30 years of DC has taught many things about wishing for funding.