At the risk of being smited, again, I offer the following non FF'ing topic...

[Trout Maharishi]

TM, I really don't see the connection in what you said.  It is not "racist" for black people to support Obama, no matter how much of them are doing it.  Its not like Obama is just going to treat black people as his constituents... Although I think it is true that he uses his race for his advantage, haven't white people been doing that for the last 500 years?  I just don't understand how black people voting for a black man has anything to do with bigotry... Is it racist for you to vote for McCain? Because he is white.

Let me try to clarify it for you Troutmaster. There are blacks that will and have voted for him simply because he is black. Do you honestly think that the only form of racism in America is whites that dislike blacks?

[High Pine]

I read alot of negative remarks about Bush and the war in Iraq. But one thing all Bush haters won't acknowledge is that there has not been a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11 2001. But i guess no one will give Bush any credit for that. As for the worst president in U.S. history, did we forget about Carter?

Pure luck my friend. if you can't stop millions of people coming here undocumented. How the hell do you think you are the one keeping use from another terrorist attack.  I do give Bush credit for trying to put my retirement money back in my hands and not the Gov. and I really thought it was time for Iraq leaders to pay the piper. But the man has increased the size of Gov. more than any other Prez.

We need another party


Its a know fact even in the wild we lean toward our own.

[Fire-Fly]

I read alot of negative remarks about Bush and the war in Iraq. But one thing all Bush haters won't acknowledge is that there has not been a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11 2001. But i guess no one will give Bush any credit for that. As for the worst president in U.S. history, did we forget about Carter?

Pure luck my friend. if you can't stop millions of people coming here undocumented. How the hell do you think you are the one keeping use from another terrorist attack.  I do give Bush credit for trying to put my retirement money back in my hands and not the Gov. and I really thought it was time for Iraq leaders to pay the piper. But the man has increased the size of Gov. more than any other Prez.

We need another party


Its a know fact even in the wild we lean toward our own.

LUCK So when a positive happens its just luck. Do you realize that under the Bush presidency over 1,500 terrorist plans in the U.S. have been stopped. That thousands of possible terrorsist trying to enter the country have been stopped. Luck, that is just piceless to say about the fact that we are the safest country in the world. Those soldiers in Iraq are shedding blood to stop a future threat to this country. But i guess what they are doing is just luck also.

[glassfisher]

We need another party

Amen brother.  Stupid self-perpetuating, polarizing 2 party system!  Can anybody answer one question?  Why does "socially conservative" always have to go with "fiscally conservative"?  Answer... it does not.  The only reason that McCain beat the other bozos is he is fiscally conservative but was the most socially liberal republican candidate that actually had a shot at still capturing the nomination from the rest of the party.  Unfortunately the republican paty was getting way too much $ from socially conservative supporters to acknowledge that fact.  Spend money wisely, let people do what they want within reason and only help those who really need the help (ie those that can't function in a free market economy like the mentally handicapped).  Ironically it was the Democrats who decided it was wrong to help the mentally handicapped and started closing first institutions, then group homes and finally put the homeless on the street.  Holy cow (no offense TM) I'm starting to sound like a Libertarian...   

[sleeper05]

all i can say is dont believe all the media and hype.  there have been alot of games being played in the media and between the parties to sway votes, thinking of less informed people.  please i encourage everyone to as OUR President would say DO YOUR DUE DILIGENCE when deciding who to vote for in the election.

as for the safety of our country.  i admire all of the soldiers that fight each and everyday and the ones that aren't still with us.  the fact of the mater is that with the lives being lost over in iraq add up to more than what would be lost had the war never began.  secondly think of the financial resources being used daily to fund the war.  that money could be used to protect our borders, up national security, help with the current financial crisis, and also decrease our dependence/support for foreign fuel by spending money on research. 

also what does it say about our country trying "promote peace" in iraq when the fact is we need to focus on peace at home.  then we would not be having the stink we are about racism here.  i myself believe the problem with racism today is still at a level that is totally unexceptable the public has just adopted the Politically Correct definition which decides what is the correct way to act/speak in public about race.  for example look at the electons and the way things are going.

[Al]

secondly think of the financial resources being used daily to fund the war.  that money could be used to protect our borders, up national security, help with the current financial crisis, and also decrease our dependence/support for foreign fuel by spending money on research. 

Problem is that all the $$$ we would save by bringing the troops home will go to income redistribution, ie social programs. That is why many folks are so opposed to the war - they look at all that $$$ and say, "just think of all the good we could do at home by expanding this or that social program" - The same divide that separates us on the war also separates us on issues such as boarder security, fixing social security and a energy policy. They talk them to death but nothing gets done.

[trout_boy_II]

secondly think of the financial resources being used daily to fund the war.  that money could be used to protect our borders, up national security, help with the current financial crisis, and also decrease our dependence/support for foreign fuel by spending money on research. 

Problem is that all the $$$ we would save by bringing the troops home will go to income redistribution, i.e. social programs. That is why many folks are so opposed to the war - they look at all that $$$ and say, "just think of all the good we could do at home by expanding this or that social program" - The same divide that separates us on the war also separates us on issues such as boarder security, fixing social security and a energy policy. They talk them to death but nothing gets done.

I think that is a valid point - the concern that the "savings" might be squandered.  But what about the almost 4,000 US lives that have already been lost?  Do you wish to add to that number with little hope for "gain" vs. excess social programs at home?  Neither is attractive, but I'd choose the latter if those are the only choices.  And, for what it is worth, last time I checked, neither party has a particularly good track record with regard to add on's and special interest funding via public dollars - in spite what they say.  Can somebody "new" make a difference?  Only time would tell, but I sure like the sound of someone who at least sez he wants to escape party politics and serve the people.

TB

BTW, did you see our VP on TV in the Middle East?  He said that the US is succeeding and that America is behind the surge/war, et al.  When asked, if that was true then why does a large percentage (don't remember the percent, but over 50%) think we should end the war?  The VP responded in effect that he didn't care and we (the people) didn't know what we were talking about!   I apologize that I could not find a link to those comments, because my generalization could correctly be considered as tainted by my distrust and dislike for the VP, but I hope you have a chance to see the clip and then you can make up your own mind!

IPS - 'I've enjoyed this thread and appreciate the fact that a group such as ours obviously care about more than just our sport/addiction.  That being said, I'm Jonesing real bad, so Trout_girl and I are headed to the mountains for the rest of the week.  Spoke 'em if you got 'em (can you still say that?) and write if you get work.  Holler if you see us in the river.

[trout_boy_II]

With some goggling, I found the clip:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/index.jhtml

Wouldn't you know The Daily Show would latch on to it.  Be that as it may, go to about 3:15 in the clip for 3-20-2008 and you can hear the VP's own words.  Note - this is not a parody, he really said this.  What a Dick!

[Trout Maharishi]

It's always interesting how any group of people can watch a clip or read an article and come away with such different interpretations of what was said. The VP most definitely could have been more diplomatic   He is correct in his assertion that the average American doesn't know what's going on. My interpretation of his message. Leadership calls for decisiveness, we don't need no stinking poll to decided what course of action to take. When is the last time any of you wrote, emailed, or called an elected official of yours to tell them how you felt about an issue, an upcoming vote or a piece of legislation? They are the ones you need to be bitching at, not just the president and the VP.  ::)

Speaking of television interviews and clips take a look at a couple of these. Rev Manning has some interesting things to say about Obama and race.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=khuu-RhOBDU

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ygWExq7g2F0&feature=related

[Fire-Fly]

glassfisher... i agree with you alot, the party system today is not working, i dont think we need a third party, but do away with the party system all together.


O.K. i'm going fishin now see ya'll.

[cmiller51h]

 

I think that is a valid point - the concern that the "savings" might be squandered.  But what about the almost 4,000 US lives that have already been lost?  Do you wish to add to that number with little hope for "gain" vs. excess social programs at home? 

Here is an eye opener for you.

Military losses for 20 years

These are some rather eye-opening facts: Since the start of the war on terror in Iraq and Afghanistan, the sacrifice has been enormous. In the time period from the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 through now, we have lost over 3000 military personnel to enemy action and accidents. As tragic as the loss of any member of the US Armed Forces is, consider the following statistics: The annual fatalities of military members while actively serving in the armed forces from 1980 through 2006:

>> 1980 ......... 2,392
>> 1981 ......... 2,380
>> 1984 ......... 1,999
>> 1988 ......... 1,819
>> 1989 ......... 1,636
>> 1990 ......... 1,508
>> 1991 ......... 1,787
>> 1992 ......... 1,293 ---------------------------
>> 1993 ......... 1,213
>> 1994 ......... 1,075
>> 1995 ......... 2,465
>> 1996 ......... 2,318 Clinton years @13,417 deaths
>> 1997 .........   817
>> 1998 ......... 2,252
>> 1999 ......... 1,984 ---------------------------
>> 2000 ......... 1,983
>> 2001 .........   890
>> 2002 ......... 1,007 7 BUSH years @9,016 deaths
>> 2003 ......... 1,410
>> 2004 ......... 1,887
>> 2005 .........   919
>> 2006 .........   920 ---------------------------

If you are confused when you look at these figures... so was I.

Do these figures mean that the loss from the two latest conflicts in the Middle East are LESS than the loss of military personnel during Mr. Clinton 's presidency; when America wasn't even involved in a war? And, I was even more confused; when I read that in 1980, during the reign of President (Nobel Peace Prize) Jimmy Carter, there were 2,392 US military fatalities!

[Peddler]

Problem is that all the $$$ we would save by bringing the troops home will go to income redistribution, ie social programs.

You know full well that money could go to other little things like OUR infrastructure right here on OUR soil and other little things like paying down the enormous debt Boy Wonder got us in to. Scare tactics obviosly work on many but, c'mon now Al, to try and say that money would only go to (key words alert!) 'social programs' is really stretching it.

[troutphisher]

Excellent data C'man

I was hoping someone would post that. All you hear about from the news stations is the death toll in Iraq, while all death are tragic, this puts it into perspective.

[flatlander]

The VP most definitely could have been more diplomatic   He is correct in his assertion that the average American doesn't know what's going on. My interpretation of his message. Leadership calls for decisiveness, we don't need no stinking poll to decided what course of action to take. When is the last time any of you wrote, emailed, or called an elected official of yours to tell them how you felt about an issue, an upcoming vote or a piece of legislation? They are the ones you need to be bitching at, not just the president and the VP.  ::)

I agree.  I love it when I see an article entitled "Poll shows Americans want Mexican border closed" juxtaposed next to another article that says "Average American Can't Locate Mexico on a Map".  Making decisions based on polls is the equivalent of holding up a sign that says  8@S

[Woolly Bugger]

Interesting figures Chuck... where did you dig those numbers up?

A more telling statistic might be the number of wounded. The current war has produced an tremendous number of severely disabled vets, over 23,000!