At the risk of being smited, again, I offer the following non FF'ing topic...

Started by trout_boy_II, March 19, 2008, 08:26:01 AM

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trout_boy_II

I think it would be safe to say that many (most?) of you are somewhere from slightly right of Attila the Hun to centrists.  I consider myself in the middle politically and I am not a registered Democrat or Republican.

By now, many of you have seen snippets of Barak Obama's speech on race in America today.  I offer you the following link to see and hear or read the speech in its entirety.  If you watch the speech, it takes slightly more than 30 minutes.  You can read it much quicker if you wish.  The thing that struck me most was the absence of negativity as a "driver" to solicit change (think fear mongering), but instead offering a hopeful, but non naive vision for America to take the next step toward greatness.  He did this without the usual political avoidance of "sensitive" issues that might not poll well, etc.  To me, it sounded like he spoke honestly from the heart.  He continues to impress me with that wild and dangerous trait!

So why read or see the whole thing?  Because it's time that we make up our own minds about something as important as a Presidential election and not allow ourselves to be steered one direction or another by a public process that plays upon our seeming unwillingness to truly pay attention.

As I've posted before, I think this guy is truly different and is someone that grasps what America could be if we, the People, take it back from the politicians.  Even he admits that his election to President would not be able to accomplish that.  But it would be a beginning and would make a statement that could make all the difference for our country and future generations.  We have too many problems in this country to continue to ignore them with "politics as usual" and continued party divisiveness that ignores those problems.  Multiple parties and opinions are great, but not when their sole objective is to bash the other party and offer no real vision of what our country could achieve.

So, here a link to see at least one guy's view on what America is now and what could start us on making it different:

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/hisownwords

Hope you watch it.  It certainly made this already professed Obama supporter think - something my 58 year old white male a$$ doesn't do enough. 

TB


PS - My current Karma level is +75/-48.  I'll take my medicine like a man, so have at it.  Thanks for reading my post.



Al

I agree with most of what you said. He is different and certainly has energized folks who up to this point have been sitting things out. But as Niel Bork's (SP) says, "These are the same folks that have made American Idol the number one show on TV today" - Not sure they are representative of the country as a whole.

I wonder if he is not a bit naive in the ways of the world - he offers "hope" but other then that does not seem to offer any concrete plans. Well, he does offer one plan that is immediate withdrawal from Iraq - and then he "hopes" the terrorists will leave us alone.

One thing that troubles me about yesterdays speech was that it was not a speech he planned to make - It was a speech necessitated by all the negative press he was receiving because of his association with the infamous Pastor Wright. He made that speech in an attempt to save his campaign. Did it work? Only time will tell.

troutphisher

TB,

Obama is a very good orator, no doubt.

But his association with Rev Wright has really caused great concerns about the sincearity of his words. To me his speech was nothing more than political damage control.

I watched his speech last night, and he read from a teleprompter,
This was a mistake in my opinion, it looked disingenuous." again more politics."

He made references to his grandmother, as gesture of association, drawing a parallel between the sharp hate filled sermons of the reverend and a loving grandmother.

It might wash with some, but I didn't believe it or buy the excuse.

He has known this man for over 20 years, and made claims at first, that he had never heard these actual sermons. Then in his speech he acknowledges, he has heard the reverend make controversial remarks. But says they do not reflect his own opinion.
Either this is false, or it's an incredibly poor example of his judgment.

This will have some people questioning his judgment as president.

He can't claim to want to unite folks and associate with the likes of Wright or people of his ilk for spiritual guidance and claim they do not influence him.

I am interested to hear the response from AL Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson.

Will they publicly condemn  Rev. Wright,Like they did to Imus?
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.

trout_boy_II

Valid points all, Al.  But I would like to point out that I do not watch American Idol  :P ;D

As for a plan to make it happen - that's actually not as true as many opponents would like us to believe.  Read his web site or The Audacity of Hope: Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream and you'll see specific plans addressing most of these issues.  But I know, that's what you hear so I understand why you make that comment.

But, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that he only has the "vision" (or let's call it a "goal" since that sounds less mystical) and has very few specific plans on how to get there.  Without a goal, a plan is worthless.  Chicken or egg?  I don't think so.  You must have a goal first.  His suggesting  that we consider concentrating on goals instead of concentrating of nothing more than negative attacks on other candidates separates him from either of the other two remaining in the run for President.  (IMHO of course).  Some of his plans to achieve the goals are still general in scope, but he is clearly a very intelligent guy who has demonstrated that he is committed to bring us all together to achieve common goals.  Call me crazy, but I like the heck out of that.  So I think a good plan will follow if the goal is truly one that we all strive for.

Look, I don't think my posts will convince anyone to vote for the candidate I favor.  I'm just suggesting that an election should be about moving our country ahead, including finally dealing with old baggage that is holding us back - even if it is better politically to not bring such things up.  I only suggest that the other two candidates show as much concern for our country and less for their party and "politics as usual" approach.  Obama isn't a prophet and no one should suggest such (and I'm not), but he is willing to talk straight and not ignore the 800 pound gorilla in the room.  I wish the other two has similar goals.  Who knows, maybe they will...

And TP, I respect your views - clearly this election is important to you and I think that's what it's all about.  But, for what it's worth, Obama did not say those things - Wright did.  And Obama did not agree with him - and said so.  Ditto for anything that Sharpton or Jackson have or will say (an African-American friend of mine once asked me how those two ever got anyone to think they were speaking for Black Americans?  I didn't have an answer other than "the TV sez so?".)  And "why now?" is a valid question.  The point is, he could have ducked and let the whole thing die down and go away, but he didn't.  He addressed it head on and damn the political pundents who, I am sure, told him it was a dangerous thing to do.  I admire his courage and find his candor and calm rationale to be so refreshing I can hardly believe it (and I'm an old fart who has seen a bunch of elections).

Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to ramble.  Remember, NC votes soon.

TB

Z-Man

I too, agree that Obama is a breath of fresh air on the political scene - and he is a very inspiring orator.  Unfortunately, I very much disagree with his political stance - I am the one that is on the far right side of Attila and want only for my government to get out of the way of our success.
That having been said, I do believe Obama would do a lot to help the US turn the page to a new chapter of race relations in this country.  Him being president would help curb a lot of complaints and concerns over equal opportunity for all in this country.  It would take votes from all types of people for him to be elected.  If that happens, no could ever say again that an African American cannot rise to the ultimate position of leadership in the US.
Now, and if it happens, I fear for his safety - we still have too many nuts around that cannot stand the notion of a black man being in charge.
And circling back - my reasons for not voting for him would be solely a matter of policies and politics - not race (or even gender - in the case of Clinton).
In any case, I am optimistic for the future of our country and its leadership.  I think this election will be truly a catharsis for the country - as long as it stays focused on policies, plans, past patterns, and the things that are critical to the needs of the country.
Hoo-Yaaaa!
Z
Z-Man

In the great outdoors your soul expands to the horizon!

Trout Maharishi

Present  ;D
"We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing."
― Charles Bukowski

troutphisher

It's strikes me, that Obama was one of the stronger voices to call for the Imus resignation, yet he is willing to give Rev Wright a pass, by explaining away his racial hatred sermons," as misplaced passion".

This is clearly a double standard. It doesn't support his views of fairness and equality for all Americans.

In fact one could easily conclude this is purely politics, not a new fresh perspective.

His wife was also the center of controversy, when she said " I am finally proud to be an American". Was she not before?
It is easy to see the influence in this statement Rev. Wright on her.
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.

Al

Quote from: trout_boy_II on March 19, 2008, 09:54:02 AM
  But, for what it's worth,  Obama did not say those things - Wright did.  And Obama did not agree with him - and said so.  Ditto for anything that Sharpton or Jackson have or will say (an African-American friend of mine once asked me how those two ever got anyone to think they were speaking for Black Americans?  I didn't have an answer other than "the TV sez so?".)  And "why now?" is a valid question.  The point is, he could have ducked and let the whole thing die down and go away, but he didn't.  He addressed it head on and damn the political pundents who, I am sure, told him it was a dangerous thing to do.  I admire his courage and find his candor and calm rationale to be so refreshing I can hardly believe it (and I'm an old fart who has seen a bunch of elections).

TB

Again I agree with you until you got down to the above quote.

Appears Obama has been listening to Rev Wright for 20 years but did not find anything wrong with his sermons until U-Tube and the media picked up on them. He certainly did not address them "head on" as you say. He danced all around the issue until he saw his polls heading south. It was then and only then that he addressed them head on - that wasn't courage, that was political calculation.

As someone else also pointed out, it appears that his wife was listening when the Rev Wright was speaking. She is not as good at covering her tracks as her husband. Makes one wonder what kind of first lady she would be. She would definitely need a handler to keep her from going off the deep end.

flatlander

Quote from: trout_boy_II on March 19, 2008, 08:26:01 AM
I consider myself in the middle politically and I am not a registered Democrat or Republican.


In the spirit of the conversation, answer something for me. As an Obama supporter and someone who professes to be a centrist, how do you reconcile his voting record with his rhetoric?  From what I have read, his voting record is the most liberal in the Senate. 

The irony of all this talk about "change" among the Democrats is that the Republican candidate is more moderate than they are and has demonstrated a willingness to "cross the aisle" on numerous occasions.

Fire-Fly

Someone correct me if i'm wrong, but as i have read, the church that Rev. Wright preaches at only allows blacks to be members. The same place where Obama has been a member of for over 20 years. Now you tell me what the reaction would be if Mcain was a member of an all white church that only allowed white members and the preacher was a racist (just like rev. Wright). He would not have snow balls chance in hell of being the president of the U.S.. IMHO, the fact that Obama is a member of that church and listens every sunday to Rev. Wright, makes him a racist. And yes the term racist goes both ways. If my church only alowed whites and my preacher was against other races i would find a new church.
     Watch my smites go up now.  :o

Fire-Fly

Quote from: Malcolm Robertson on March 19, 2008, 12:39:14 PM
Quote from: trout_boy_II on March 19, 2008, 08:26:01 AM
I consider myself in the middle politically and I am not a registered Democrat or Republican.


In the spirit of the conversation, answer something for me. As an Obama supporter and someone who professes to be a centrist, how do you reconcile his voting record with his rhetoric?  From what I have read, his voting record is the most liberal in the Senate. 

The irony of all this talk about "change" among the Democrats is that the Republican candidate is more moderate than they are and has demonstrated a willingness to "cross the aisle" on numerous occasions.


I didnt know Obama actually voted, i thought he just voted present. But that would be a CHANGE from voting yes or no. Thanks for breing this up MR

troutfreak

TB II,
You are brave one to start a thread on politics, congrats!  I agree with TP, I do not believe Obama is being as honest as he says he is.  He is playing the politics game with the rest of the others.  Lord help us, we do have a bunch of idiots to pick from that is for sure. 
TF

trout_boy_II

TF -

Hey, if it makes folks think more about who's going to next run the country, that's a good thing.  Lord knows I didn't expect to change anybody's mind.  I do hope, however, that maybe those who didn't plan to vote in the Primary coming up - now will.  If for no other reason than to shut me up!  ;D

Peace.

TB

Z-Man

Quote from: troutfreak on March 19, 2008, 13:40:37 PM
TB II,
You are brave one to start a thread on politics, congrats! 

Awwww - you ought to be smited anyway just cause.....
:j
I didn't but you oughta be......

Z
Z-Man

In the great outdoors your soul expands to the horizon!

High Pine