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Started by trout-r-us, December 08, 2006, 10:39:45 AM

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trout-r-us

December 08, 2006, 10:39:45 AM Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 01:15:05 AM by trout-r-us

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outdoorguy3

Town Creek?  Town Creek is the opposite direction from the trestle.  Would mind giving more details?

Exactly were you when you met the person on the 4 wheeler?

Ralph   0--0

Life's about havin' FUN!!!

Woolly Bugger

VA law is that you need written permission to be on private property... I don't know if where you were fishing was private or public land...

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Woolly Bugger

Quote from: trout-r-us on December 08, 2006, 13:06:55 PM

Outdoor 3,
I was in Town Creek where the trestle crosses, maybe a hundred yards up the tracks from the mirror plant parking lot.

Wooly, from what you're saying, I gather that private property would extend into the stream bed in Virginia. Is that correct?

From what I understand part's of VA are ruled under the King's Grant that limits the fishing on the Jackson. In some cases it is not only the stream bed but to the fish in the water too!  o-o
ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Stuart R.

Depends if you are in a navigable stream or not. If it is nav. you can wade or float as ling as you get in the river bed and out of the river bed at places you have permission or at public access points. THat is the way I understand it anyway. The catch is the stream on the list of nav. rivers? Navigability is a federal test therefore the state can't override it. I have spoken with a game warden about tis and that is what he told me on the issue. But PLEASE don't go get a ticket because of me do your own research.

STU

CPR Catch, Photo, Release.

phg

December 12, 2006, 11:11:24 AM #5 Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 11:14:03 AM by phg

This is a hotly debated issue, and has been discussed at considerable length in a number of forums.  The bottom line is that many people think they own the streambed, and even have clauses in their deeds that seem to convey that right.  Some states, VA being one, have a history of honoring those clauses, and in VA's case have even advanced "King's Grant" as a legitimate argument - which is total nonsense, since there has never been a king of the US, and grants by a foreign sovereign have no standing in US law.

The problem is, while federal law clearly grants water rights and fishing rights to the general public, these federal laws are not consolidated into one place, and the courts have a checkered history of applying them to specific cases.  If you have the money and the time, you can successfully fight nearly any claim of "private water," unless it's an isolated man-made pond.  The only difficulty is in, advancing your claim through the court system, since trespassing is a misdemeanor, and misdemeanor convictions can't usually be appealed to a higher court.

There are groups that are at work getting the existing laws recognized and enforced, but they are working "top down" as it were, getting access to the higher profile streams and rivers first, with the expectation that at some point, access to all the smaller streams will fall in place.  For now, though, the recommendation is that you play nice and not press the issue.  Cooperation, not confrontation.  You can get a lot further being nice to landowners, since most of them are pretty nice people who really don't mind if you fish, as long as you don't trash up their place.

As for navigability, the test used by federal courts is, "A stream that is navigable in fact is navigable in law."  In other words, there is no definitive list of navigable streams, but if you can float a boat in it, it's navigable.  This includes canoes, kayaks and 'toons, and scraping bottom from time to time is not a problem, nor is an occasional portage around obstacles (rapids, waterfalls, shoals, dams.)  Again, though, challenging a landowner's claim that "his" stream is not navigable is costly and time consuming.  Hopefully, our grandchildren will be able to access the few remaining floatable/fishable streams more freely....


phg

I have wondered about Blackberry Creek....  ::) Yeah, I'd say Towne Creek is way down near the bottom of the list.  The people who live along it not only think they own the stream, they seem to believe they have the right to pollute it as well. o-o


natureboy

I've looked into the streambed ownership stuff quite a bit and in VA it's not very promising.  A couple things though--the kings grants are ONLY on the Jackson and not for a very long stretch of river, so even as bs as we think they are, it really doesn't affect that much water.  Also, the VDGIF will send you a list of navigable rivers for the state if you ask them.  I can't remember who I emailed for it, but if you go on the website and email them a request with your address I think that would probably work.  I think I may have requested mine from one of the fisheries biologists.  A note on their list...in my opinion...it's severely lacking, plenty of water that should be classified navigable that's not on the list.


Stuart R.

From what I understand there is a list of Nav. streams and the Army Corps of Eng. declared these rivers maybe back in the early 1900s or so. ON the VDGIF website you can see if a river is condidered nav. legally. I have just looked at the ones that concern me.

STU

CPR Catch, Photo, Release.

Colston Newton

Couple of quick points. First as to "King's Grants." Those grants established the base title to land. When Virginia threw off the monarchy's sovereignty, it assumed that sovereignty including the obligation to recognize grants by the predecessor sovereign. (That's why Common Law still applies - the newly independent states didn't start from scratch.) The evil principle is that if the state starts abrogating it's earler grants, no property is safe from the whims of the legislature. Now, all we have to worry about is eminent domain.

Second, as to the non-appealabilty of misdemeanors. In Virginia,they are not only appealable, but the appeal is guaranteed and the case it tried anew in the Circuit Court. From there, appeals are available all the way to the Supreme Court, butthey aren't guaranteed.



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