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the hybrids are coming, the hybrids are comint! 100 mpg Prius in the Works?

Started by Woolly Bugger, October 11, 2006, 04:00:17 AM

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Woolly Bugger

Due in two years as a 2009 model, the next Prius is set to be an evolution, company sources say. The hybrid will retain the same basic 1.5-liter hybrid drivetrain. But Toyota is now on a mission to do two things: drive the economy ratings skyward, and cut the associated costs by 20-30 percent.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109981

I'd hate to own one of the old Prisus Gas Guzzlers!

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Al

My wife is thinking about a hybrid Camray. Anyone have any experience with them?

Another question - What happens 6-7 years down the road when that battery will no longer hold a charge? Will we end up with a big recycle problem from all those dead hybrid batteries?


Peddler

Quote from: Al on October 11, 2006, 08:08:40 AM

Another question - What happens 6-7 years down the road when that battery will no longer hold a charge? Will we end up with a big recycle problem from all those dead hybrid batteries?

I would never make it as President. I would insist that the empty cargo ships leaving our ports be filled with all the used plastic, glass, chemicals, packaging, tires, batteries and such that are imported here. Must be nice to make mucho dinero from us and not have a worry about recycling the stuff once its useful life is over.

The early bird may get the worm,
but the second mouse gets the cheese.

Woolly Bugger

How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker.

Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.

There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

phg

...aah, now you're getting into the hidden cost of outsourcing.  It's sort of like ***-Mart's health care program, it's called "Medicaid" o-o


jamisjockey

-JD

I hated hipsters before it was mainstream

lepomis_mcro

Quote from: phg on October 11, 2006, 10:20:59 AM

...aah, now you're getting into the hidden cost of outsourcing.  It's sort of like ***-Mart's health care program, it's called "Medicaid" o-o

you got the wrong guy on that...the real bad guy is medicaid for letting them sign up, because ***-mart does have health insurance for less the $40 a month, some people with a low IQ  just chose not to sign up ;)

(mark 6:41)"Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then said to the crowd amassed before him. I have mine the hell with the rest of you."

taken from the christian conservative handbook.  how to deal with modern problems.

phg

Quote from: lepomis_mcro on October 11, 2006, 18:46:18 PM

Quote from: phg on October 11, 2006, 10:20:59 AM

...aah, now you're getting into the hidden cost of outsourcing.  It's sort of like ***-Mart's health care program, it's called "Medicaid" o-o

you got the wrong guy on that...the real bad guy is medicaid for letting them sign up, because ***-mart does have health insurance for less the $40 a month, some people with a low IQ  just chose not to sign up ;)
The point is that, to keep costs down, ***-Mart pays so little, that many of their employees qualify for medicaid, as well as food stamps, and other programs.  Consequently, we the taxpayers are forced to pick up the cost of their "fringe benefits."

Silver Creek

Quote from: Woolly Bugger on October 11, 2006, 10:19:52 AM

How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?

There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
See the problems from a few customers with their batteries

Hybrid autos have the greatest benefit when driven in town, eg, stop and go driving where regenerative braking recaptures the kinetic energy of the car as electric energy. They gain very little over standard vehicles of similar power when driven on the highways. Even city mileage is way off in EPA test according to a CBS and Consumer Reports "But, points out Koeppen, some of the most startling differences were found in hybrids. For instance, the popular Toyota Prius, which the EPA estimates gets 60 miles per gallon in city driving, only got 35 when the magazine (Consumer Reports) put it to the test."

In fact Consumer Reports did a study on hybrids because the real world mileage is so much worse than the EPA estimates, much worse relative to gasoline/diesel engines estimates because of the speed and acceleration used for the EPA city and highway cycles. The EPA tests simply do not test how we drive our vehicle. Rather than develop a true test, the EPA just deducts a fixed % from their test and assumes all vehicles mileage will decline by this amount. In real life the mileage of hybrids declines by much more and the result is that the EPA overestimates hybrid mileage. At low accelerations and low speeds a hybrid uses only the electric motor, and when a test uses low accelerations and speeds below what is normally used, it artificially inflates the mileage of the hybrid. Did you know that the EPA mileage test assumes you won't go over 60 mph on the freeway and will take over a minute to accelerate to that speed?

A Prius also must be driven for 30 minutes every week. Not doing so risks damaging the battery so you cannot leave the vehicle for 3 weeks while you go on an extended vacation as you can with a normal vehicle. "Note: The 2001 Prius owners manual specifically states that the vehicle should be driven for 30 consecutive minutes at least once a week to ensure the battery remains properly charged."

Secondly, calculate your payback mileage. Some vehicles will not payback the initial investment unless the until the vehicle is driven over 100K miles. I think the payback on a Prius is about 70-80 K miles. So it is a vehicle you want to own a long time. Remember that this is only to pay back the extra cost. There is also the loss of the use of the extra money you spend when you buy a hybrid. You could invest that money and make 5% risk free in T notes so the pay back period must also consider the loss of this capital over the life of the vehicle.

Both Car and Driver and Automobile magazines have had editorials regarding hybrid vehicles. They both feel the extra cost, payback time, and unanswered questions about residual value of the vehicle when the battery is out of warranty causes them to not recommend hybrid vehicles. At this time both magazines feel that the newer clean diesel vehicles using the newer diesel low sulfur fuels (97% reduction in sulfur) is a better alternative to hybrid at this time.

Diesels get 30 to 40% better mileage both in city and highway driving, have greater durability than gas engines, and are a proven technology with close to 50% of the market in Europe. As an example the Mercedes E class Blutec 6 cylinder diesel gets 37 mpg highway mileage and the cost is only $1,000.00 more than the 6 cylinder gasoline engine compared to an $8,000.00 premium for a Lexus GS hybrid and $4,000+ for a Toyota hydbrid. If a 4500 lb Mercedes gets 37 MPG, what would a diesel the weight of a Prius get?

CNNMoney has an article dated Oct 4, 2006 outlining the advantages of diesel and the fact that they will out sell hybrids by almost 2:1 by 2013. All the major European automakers (Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen) have decided to use the Mercedes Blutec engine. You will see a Blutec engine in a Jeep which probably will get close to 40 mpg.

If you want a reliable high mileage vehicle that costs less than a hybrid, with mileage close to EPA estimates, without the loss of trunk space to a battery, without the risk of electrocution when an untrained EMTs cut into your hybrid, without the risk of high voltage sparks ingniting the gasoline in a crash, and with the ability to leave the vehicle undriven for a week, get a Blutec diesel.

Regards,

Silver

http://tinyurl.com/kkctayx


"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

troutjedi

Uh, here's a million dollar idea:  Diesel hybrid.......

Why is it that I always have to think of this s***???

::) ::) ::) ;D ;D


Silver Creek

Quote from: troutjedi on October 15, 2006, 00:00:09 AM

Uh, here's a million dollar idea:  Diesel hybrid.......

Why is it that I always have to think of this s***???

::) ::) ::) ;D ;D

Yup, that is a good idea. Here's another.

BMW has an idea to use the excess heat of the engine to create more power. They have built a prototype engine that pumps hot fluid from the engine to a heat exchanger that causes another fluid to boil and then the resultant gas runs a turbine that either runs a generator or an auxiliary transmission to add power to the car. The "gas" is then condensed and recycled to the heat exchanger. The beauty of this system is that the heat used would be wasted in the radiator so you get about 10% extra mileage without burning any extra fuel.

A gasoline engine is a heat engine and the more efficient you are in converting the heat (thermal energy) to mechanical energy, the more efficient the engine is. The BMW engine is essentially a combination of a standard gasoline engine and a "steam" engine that runs off of the excess heat from the gasoline engine. I think it is a wonderful concept.

Regards,

Silver

http://tinyurl.com/kkctayx


"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

Woolly Bugger

GE's been building diesels fuel efficient hybrids for decades...the're called locomotives.....

The Evolution Series™ locomotives feature new 12-cylinder GEVO™ diesel engines that produce 4,400 horsepower, the same as existing 16-cylinder engines on GE locomotives, while emitting 40% fewer pollutants and enhancing fuel efficiency.

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ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

phg

Quote

Did you know that the EPA mileage test assumes you won't go over 60 mph on the freeway and will take over a minute to accelerate to that speed?

I've gotten behind a few of them. o-o

Wooly, most of the locomotives I'm familiar with are Diesel-Electric, and are already a hybred of sorts.  The diesel engine turns a generator that, in turn powers the massive electric motors that actually power the drivewheels.  Since, in a Locomotive, the added weight is an advantage, this works out prety well.


Woolly Bugger

Quote from: phg on October 15, 2006, 14:53:56 PM

Quote

Did you know that the EPA mileage test assumes you won't go over 60 mph on the freeway and will take over a minute to accelerate to that speed?

I've gotten behind a few of them. o-o

Wooly, most of the locomotives I'm familiar with are Diesel-Electric, and are already a hybred of sorts.  The diesel engine turns a generator that, in turn powers the massive electric motors that actually power the drivewheels.  Since, in a Locomotive, the added weight is an advantage, this works out prety well.

I ment to say that the first time ..... diesel hybrids!

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Silver Creek

Here is Honda's version of a clean diesel. It is already in Europe with combined city/hwy mileage of 42 mpg and a 0-60 mph time of just over 9 seconds. It has 138 hp vs the combined 145 hp of the Prius combined gas engine + electric motor combo and yet is a second faster to 60 mph with the Prius taking over 10 seconds.

How does the Honda Accord compare to the Toyota Camry Hybrid which is in the same size class? The Honda actually has a better gas mileage rating with and average of 42 mpg combined compare to Honda's combined of 40 mpg (42 city, 38 hwy). When Edmunds.com actually tested the hybrid Camry they got an average mileage of 32.6 mpg.

I'll take the Honda and put the extra $$$$ in my pocket.  And, no battery taking up storage space in the trunk.

Regards,

Silver

http://tinyurl.com/kkctayx


"Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy


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