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Rod/Reel Balance??????????

Started by Mudwall Gatewood 3.0, January 02, 2023, 11:52:39 AM

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Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

A new thread after seeing some of the posts under greg's search for a new reel.

I ain't sure I am buying the rod balance concern.  If a rod feels "heavy" or "light", the size or weight of the reel will not change the feel.

Many years ago I had a 8'9" 3wt Sage LL with a Stan Bogdan Baby Trout wide spool reel.  The reel weighed a ton, but the setup was one of the best casting tools I ever had in my hand.  If you attempted to find a "balance" point on this rig, the tip top would fly skyward; there was no "balance". 

Another outfit (which I still have) that I fished often is a an 8'6" 4wt Scott Eclipse with an old CFOIII reel.  With this setup, the rod tip top will fall towards the ground, because of the relatively light weight reel.  BUT, casting the rig is a dream.

Another point, every photo or tutorial I've seen on rod/reel balance has an unstrung rod (no line through the guides).  Does this make sense, or am I missing something?

Bottomline is, I think rod/reel balance is much hokum and bunkum. 
 
"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

Woolly Bugger

Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on January 02, 2023, 11:52:39 AMBottomline is, I think rod/reel balance is much hokum and bunkum. 


To a certain extent, that may be true, but it all depends on upon what you get used to. A while back, while the Sage SP was off for repair, I was using another 5 wt, with a different reel, that went on for a couple of months and I got used to casting that new outfit. when the SP camp back, I was excited to fish my favorite rod again. I freaked out the first couple times as the balance of the rod was way different that it's replacement. It took a while to adjust my stroke to compensate for the difference.

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!
me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.
My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

troutboy_II

First of all, I was not suggesting that "balancing" a reel/rod will make it feel heavier or lighter. Balanced is just that. I also agree that this could all be "hokum". But for me at least, I find it obvious when a rod and reel jell and everything just feels in "balance".  Can't think of another way to describe it.  I do know when a combo feels unbalanced.  And sure, you can get used to anything so maybe no big deal, but when you first try a new reel/rod combo, it will either feel right or not.  I think that balance plays the biggest part of that feel.

For example, I use a first generation Lamson Litespeed on my 5 wt. Sage XP and a Ross Colorado 0 on my St. Croix Ultra 3 wt.  If I swap those reels, I can assure you that neither rod/reel combo will feel right, but they balance perfectly when matched as originally described.Perhaps not a great example, but...

I guess my main point is, once you decide if you really care about modern drag or not, decide based on what feels best.

Although, if I'm honest, my 20+ year old fully ported Colorado 0 looks so cool I would probably spend time looking for an appropriate rod to "balance" it instead!  So I guess style matters!

Bottom line for me, the usual advice to try a bunch of rods to find out what feels good to you and fits your stoke can also apply to fitting a reel to that rod.  IMHO of course. Your milage may differ.  :wave

Peace.

TB
When fishing, a person ought to carry a flask of whisky in case of snakebite. Furthermore, he ought to also carry along a small snake.

jwgnc

When I put a somewhat heavy reel on a light rod (with correct line weight), I found myself gripping down the handle to where my little finger was off the cork, under the reel.  It made the tip feel heavier.  That condition is what I refer to as out of balance.
Stalk softly and carry a green stick.

Fishbug

I had similar thoughts.

Outside of a pure euro rod where the tip is hanging at 9-10oclock all day I say meh.


Dougfish

Quote from: Fishbug on January 02, 2023, 19:27:18 PMI had similar thoughts.

Outside of a pure euro rod where the tip is hanging at 9-10oclock all day I say meh.


This.
I have an old, heavy 1498 Medalist on my 10' euro rod. The only rod I worry much about balancing.

On other rods the line/rod combo matters more. Between all the different glass and graphite I own, I need multiple personalities(?) to adjust from day to day. Slow to fast. DT to WF. Meh. Just have fun.
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
 Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? "
Kelly's Heroes,1970

"I don't wanna go to hell,
But if I do,
It'll be 'cause of you..."
Strange Desire, The Black Keys, 2006

trout-r-us

I never knew fishing could be so complicated.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man."
― Heraclitus

streamereater_101691

Hiner, I'll explain my basic procedure that works for me.

When I purchase a new rod, I will throw the standard size reel on the rod. We'll say 5wt in this case. I'll start with rio gold(my preferred line) and make some casts feeling the rod and the cork. I'll make cast out to 45ft until the head of the fly line is out of the guides. At that point I'll try and balance the package under my pointer finger position on the cork.
If the tip falls forward, I throw on a heavier reel. If the tip flies up, I put on a lighter reel. The final product basically ends up balancing under my middle finger placement on the cork when the line is reeled in on the reel.
This is my preferred balance point in most cases for me. Everyone is different. Most of your high end rods are extremely light in the tip and do not require a heavier reel. A lot of the mid priced rods do require upsizing the reel in my experience to achieve this scenario.
This procedure definitely improved my casting though out all rod sizes, especially 9-12wt due to the heavier overall rod/reel swing weight. I noticed a lot less elbow fatigue as well as accuracy at distance. When the rod was tip heavy, my fly would go left of where I was looking at 60ft.
Is it as critical in the trout world? Probably not, but I've noticed a difference in my own casting, especially at 50-70ft. My fly ends up going where I'm looking more often, which isn't the correct place all the time, but you know what I'm saying.

Big J


Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

Quote from: Big J on January 03, 2023, 16:42:44 PMYou fly fish Mudwall?  :P



I remember what it was like.

Truth is, I've fly fished several times since I've had sex.  I only vaguely remember the latter.  That is why I have a new fly line and have located waders and wading boots; the Smith in May is on my mind.  I have no qualms on forgetting all things fornication, BUT I'd hate to fail to remember all the great times I had fly angling.
"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

Dougfish

The Smiff? See you there. :Dance
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here?
 Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? "
Kelly's Heroes,1970

"I don't wanna go to hell,
But if I do,
It'll be 'cause of you..."
Strange Desire, The Black Keys, 2006

driver


Look at us actually discussing fly fishing on a fly fishing board for once.

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That said,
If you ever have cast a bamboo rod, balance makes a world of different with those.

In general I like a heavy reel on a slower rod as it reduces jumping of the blank during false casts.

On graphite rods I just try to get it to balance at the cork. To me it's close enough. I'm not going to not use a reel because it doesn't balance

In the salt my rod's are generally very reel heavy due to giant drags a sinking lines. I can still bomb casts all day, so Muddy may have a point.

Fishbug

The whole point of this is WTF don't rod manufacturers provide a recommended reel weight and line?!

Woolly Bugger

For @Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 from the chatbot

Physics and calculus can both be used to help determine the proper balance of a fly rod and reel. To properly balance a fly rod and reel, one must understand the physics of the system, such as the forces and moments that are acting on the rod, as well as the mass and center of mass of the rod. Knowing the center of gravity of the system is also key in understanding where the balance point should be.

Calculus can then be applied to the physics equations to determine the optimal balance of the system. By using calculus to analyze the equations that describe the system, it is possible to determine the force/moment of inertia that each component of the system has and how those forces and moments affect the balance of the system. Additionally, calculus can be used to determine the path of the center of gravity in space over time as the fly rod is cast, which allows for the proper fine-tuning of the balance between the rod and reel.
ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!
me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.
My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Phil

#14
Well, that counts me out. I don't do physics, calculus, or math. I'm an old broke-down piano and guitar player, and my rods and reels are too cheap to worry much about "balance." :drum