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For the love of guns

Started by Mudwall Gatewood, October 10, 2014, 12:46:22 PM

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Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

April 17, 2021, 14:07:32 PM #840 Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 14:24:28 PM by Mudwall Gatewood 3.0
Quote from: Big J on April 17, 2021, 13:09:55 PMI agree. Let's say the number is 1.22 million defensive uses. Right smack in the middle. Let's say 5% of those uses save a life. Still at 61,000 lives saved is almost double the amount loss. As someone in the scientific field you very well know you cannot talk about a solution without evaluating the outcomes on the other side. Some of the defensive uses save a lot of people.

"Some of the defensive uses save a lot of people."  You can't claim that from that figure and definition.

Yes, a possible evaluation and solution with solid numbers, based on a clear definition.  Not a speculative solution (where statistics can be manipulated) based on numbers tallied from such a broad definition or description.   

I have no idea if these latest numbers/ratings are available and correct. 
1. Guns per capita
2. Gun related deaths per capita
3. Number of mass shootings/murders w/ clear definition (I believe the FBI defines a "mass murder" as "four or more murdered during an event with no "cooling-off period" between the murders."
4. Demographics of the mass shooters (gender, age, location, acquisition of weapon(s), etc.)
5. Ease of acquiring firearms (likely no rating)
6. Number of mentally challenged (again, I doubt the numbers are obtainable)
7. Number of "defensive gun uses" that save a life (yes, potentially part of the solution if attainable)

There are other aspects of this conundrum I am sure, but these come to mind and are of interest to me.
"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

Big J

I'm not putting a number on the amount of lives that were saved due to the defensive use of a gun because it is unobtainable. But it doesn't mean it isn't something to consider with real life scenarios that have played out. Sutherland Springs shooting is the big one that stands out. That guy had a list of churches he was going to shoot up and a civilian was able to put him down as he was trying to get to his car to go to the next church. There are a lot of cases where someone stops someone from committing  mass murders because they were stopped and those stories never make the news because "nothing tragic happened" and the it does not fit the media's narrative they want to push.

PS I believe the US is around 20th in gun deaths per capita.
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end." Hemingway

Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

I don't know if these videos were posted earlier, but no matter how you feel about guns, this is a hoot if you don't forget it is comedy. 




"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

Quote from: Big J on April 17, 2021, 14:58:59 PMThere are a lot of cases where someone stops someone from committing  mass murders because they were stopped and those stories never make the news because "nothing tragic happened" and the it does not fit the media's narrative they want to push.
 

Not my intention to jab Big J, but I remain perplexed and often wonder if I am overlooking some rational perspective. 

J, I again question your assumption.  I believe we would hear those stories.  I bet the pro-gun delegation would make sure we heard the stories and even under your notion of "the media's narrative" we'd hear from at least some media outlet.  I would want to hear the story and I am sure you would.  I certainly would expect to hear of such gallantry if "there are a lot of cases where someone stops someone from committing mass murders" as you claim.  Now, I'll play in your ballpark and assume "a lot" = exposure/coverage even if nothing bad happened.     

Yes, we heard about the Sutherland Springs church shooting and the bravery of Stephen Willeford.  He shot the guy twice, I believe, but I think the killer died of a self-inflicted head wound.  Not sure but I also believe the tragedy was covered by every news media, but yes, you are correct, something tragic happened. 
"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

Big J

https://www.fox23.com/news/local/man-shoots-kills-woman-accused-opening-fire-tulsa-shopping-area-police-say/XCNRFAWGLJBGTODOIPSRS4TDV4/#continue_below

I'm married, in tax season, with 3 kids 5 and under. Quit being lazy and do your own research. Here is a short blurb with no follow up on a shooting the media barely mentioned. There are others. If you really are so interested, put in the leg work and learn you old hermit. It happens more than you'd think and the stories where one bad guy gets shot doesn't make the national news. Even when they had heinous intentions.
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end." Hemingway

Big J

All of this is unsubstantiated opinions.  That article is basically saying to bend over and take it because you can't possibly defend yourself.  One clear thing about most shooting incidents, it is usually over when the attacker starts taking rounds back that it ends. And yes, concealed carriers do represent some proportion of these stoppages.  Like in Sutherland Springs, White Settlement, Pearl High School, New Life Church Colorado Springs, Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital, national shooting club Santa Clara,  Shoney's Family Restaurant Alabama, Golden Food Market Shooting Virginia, Peach House RV Shooting Texas, AT&T store New York Mills, Players Bar and Grill NV Shooting, Playoffz nightclub SC, St. Cloud Mall MN, Clackamas Town Center, Appalachian School of Law.  Sure, most incidents may stop because of police intervention, but it is also noted that the majority of the high profile mass shootings happen in gun free zones where people are not allowed to conceal carry. 


An Opinion Piece below with some good references and links.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2019/08/05/gun-owners-america-guns-save-lives-every-day-editorials-debates/1916643001/

An article that actually has talking points on both sides and has sources unlike the BS you all bring up.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/2018/04/30/that-time-the-cdc-asked-about-defensive-gun-uses/?sh=7058e383299a

Just using common sense, I carry a gun every day.  I'll probably never need to use it.  However, I do know there are bad actors out there who could and can do awful acts, laws on the books or not.  When I'm out with my family, heaven forbid someone does something heinous, I like the fact I can actually attempt to do something rather than bend over and give my family a hug.  My guns are of no harm to anyone unless said person is attempting to seriously harm me or my family.  These emotional arguments that are being made, while I understand the empathy and sincerity behind them, at the end of the day they will do nothing to curb violence.  The 1994 AWB showed statistically that violent crime did not decrease exponentially and when it was lifted, violent crime did not rise exponentially. Even the Washington Post gave Biden Two Pinocchio's for telling the lie that mass shootings decreased because of the 1994 ban.   
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end." Hemingway

Phil

troutrus -- From reading most of your posts, I am about as liberal as you on most issues -- except this one. I carry a pistol to protect myself and my wife, and know how to handle it safely. There are a plentitude of crazies in the world nowadays, like it or not. My "hippie" youth notwithstanding, "All You Need is Love" doesn't stop the increasing possibility of deadly threat from meth-heads/sociopaths/criminals, especially when going to larger metro areas. Just my opinion.   

Phil

Quote from: troutrus on April 19, 2021, 18:35:49 PMIt does make me sad that there are so many people who seem to be afraid to leave their house without a gun. 


I'm not afraid, just prepared. I'm sad that the current state of this country deems it prudent for me to be prepared.

Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

Great discussion but I am tapping out of this one, at least until someone well above my scholarly station or some expert loaded think tank provides me with information that I can grasp, understand, and believe.   At the present I am as confused as a raccoon washing cotton candy.
"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

Woolly Bugger

From the front line;

"Gun stores just issued their "Potential Civil Unrest" gun procedures."

Plan for the worse, hope for the best!
ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

bmadd

Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on April 19, 2021, 18:46:09 PMI am as confused as a raccoon washing cotton candy.

This is the only thing that I am taking away from this thread

Dougfish

Quote from: bmadd on April 20, 2021, 18:57:54 PM
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on April 19, 2021, 18:46:09 PMI am as confused as a raccoon washing cotton candy.

This is the only thing that I am taking away from this thread

I appreciate a thoughtful man, grasshopper.
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? " -Oddball, 1970

"I don't wanna go to hell,
But if I do,
It'll be 'cause of you..."
Strange Desire, The Black Keys, 2006


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