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Native Tree/Plant Plight

Started by Onslow, February 23, 2019, 14:00:50 pm

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JMiller

February 24, 2019, 20:26:16 pm #15 Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 20:28:46 pm by JMiller
Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on February 24, 2019, 09:36:51 amI don't believe all farmers/landowners are denuding the native vegetation.  Some are allowing wild veg to grow between open expanses, providing native bees/other insects what they need to do their thing.  We have a local couple that purchased property upstream on Little Back Creek.  They are wonderful stewards of their little chunk of Shangri-La, allowing native flora and fauna to flourish.  I don't believe this sort of guardianship is that much of an anomaly in certain areas.

Different tastes of honey, produced by the Europeans, are certainly a joy, but I've always had mixed feelings about the "White Man´s Fly".  After all, native insects and wild bees handled the task of pollination very well before we entered the picture.   


Indeed.
Honey bees compete with and negatively affect our native pollinators. Yes, they're a necessary component of industrial scale agriculture, and they have some historical/yeoman farmer heritage that should recognized, but ultimately they don't help our native plant communities or wildlife. Honeybees and their issues are an agricultural consideration, not a matter of natural resources.

Also, lots of people think "allowing native veg to flourish" is enough. Not getting at you here, but the post caught my eye. Allowing old fields and cutovers to grow up into mature forest isn't actually good for much where it comes to diversity.
Diverse landscapes need disturbance. Fires. Floods. Grazing. A mosaic of successional communities.

Invasive plants need to be controlled. 

Quail?
IMO, and this is truly just an opinion, quail numbers were artificially inflated historically, as a result of large scale logging, soil loss that led to bare ground, farmer attitudes toward birds of prey and wildlife which resulted in killing off high numbers of predators. The "good old days" of quail hunting were a confluence of poor land management practices that actually led to increased quail numbers.
As the land, wildlife have been treated better, quail have suffered. Doesn't matter what your hedgerows look like if the pasture is in fescue and every span of phone line has a red-tail sitting on it .

Same for grouse in the South IMO. Numbers were artificially high due to large scale logging in the highlands. That scrubby stuff for thousands of acres doesn't exist anymore. Like the quail, there'll always be a few that hang around in the laurel, but unless people start clearing the land in a massive way, we'll never see grouse as we did in the past.

Just think about the landscape in Maine or Northern Wisconsin where they hunt grouse. Bares almost no resemblance to mature mountain forests of the south. Just wrist-sized aspen and maples for acres and acres.

Onslow



QuoteHoneybees and their issues are an agricultural consideration, not a matter of natural resources.

No creature exists in isolation, and not all honeybee an components of ag.  Honeybees can be the canary in the coal mine. While diseases pertaining to honey bees only concern honey bees; pesticide issues, erratic weather, nectar and plant elimination, affect all native pollinators.

QuoteIMO, and this is truly just an opinion, quail numbers were artificially inflated historically, as a result of large scale logging, soil loss that led to bare ground, farmer attitudes toward birds of prey and wildlife which resulted in killing off high numbers of predators. The "good old days" of quail hunting were a confluence of poor land management practices that actually led to increased quail numbers.
As the land, wildlife have been treated better, quail have suffered. Doesn't matter what your hedgerows look like if the pasture is in fescue and every span of phone line has a red-tail sitting on it .

I cannot speak for quail issues in other areas, but the land I spent most of my youth was no used for bird hunting, nor were any red tail hawks shot for any reason.  The quail disappearance was abrupt, and coincided with land use changes described earlier.  Causation or correlation?  who in the hell knows.  I just know that prunus americana and sumac are good for most everything that lives in the wild, but are being eradicated in many areas.  The adverse consequences of said eradications are real, but maybe not readily apparent to those who are not paying attention.

JMiller

Quote from: Onslow on February 24, 2019, 21:35:45 pmNo creature exists in isolation, and not all honeybee an components of ag.  Honeybees can be the canary in the coal mine. While diseases pertaining to honey bees only concern honey bees; pesticide issues, erratic weather, nectar and plant elimination, affect all native pollinators.


Honey bees aren't native pollinators. I'm sure you're well aware of this, but I feel I need to make this point clear for others reading this thread as they are often presented as such.

Yes environmental factors that kill honeybees probably also kill most native bees.





QuoteI cannot speak for quail issues in other areas, but the land I spent most of my youth was no used for bird hunting, nor were any red tail hawks shot for any reason.  The quail disappearance was abrupt, and coincided with land use changes described earlier.  Causation or correlation?  who in the hell knows.  I just know that prunus americana and sumac are good for most everything that lives in the wild, but are being eradicated in many areas.  The adverse consequences of said eradications are real, but maybe not readily apparent to those who are not paying attention.

Both species are common here. No quail though. Typical of any roadside or old field.

I've heard it postulated that decline of quail roughly coincides with raptor population explosion following the DDT ban. That's not to say it's the only factor, just one you can't actually do anything about via habitat manipulation.

Also, fescue thatch is no good. The birds need bare ground between bunch grasses. Cattle pasture is no good even if the hedges are right.

All the other ag is roundup ready at this point. Which gives you some bare earth, but no overgrown fence rows.


Woolly Bugger

My dad brought an American Chestnut sapling from Maine back to NC. I planted it in our yard and it grew for about 7 years. On that year it bloomed and bore a total of about 1/2 dozens chestnuts, which I roasted and ate. Then insects bored all around the trunk and it died the following year. It was over twenty feet tall.
ex - "I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!"

me - "There's a season?"

Onslow

Quote from: Woolly Bugger on February 25, 2019, 00:38:27 amMy dad brought an American Chestnut sapling from Maine back to NC. I planted it in our yard and it grew for about 7 years. On that year it bloomed and bore a total of about 1/2 dozens chestnuts, which I roasted and ate. Then insects bored all around the trunk and it died the following year. It was over twenty feet tall.

Based on your observations and experience, it seems there many more issues to overcome before any viable AC comeback will take place.  Insect infestation, no bueno.


Dougfish

February 26, 2019, 12:44:17 pm #20 Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 15:41:02 pm by Dougfish
Chestnut Blight.
Dutch Elm Disease.
Just two huge examples in the native plant world where mankind can fuck something up really quick and really cheap.
And attempt to fix it over generations at great cost. And get nowhere fast.
As I said, humans suck.
Hey, we're not as fucked up as India (or pick another country). Yay!

Planning a trip to catch some Goldens before they, and I, are gone.
I'll take a huge, pollution spewing plane to get there.
Carry on.
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? " <br />-Oddball, 1970

Woolly Bugger

when I was young, 3-5 years old there was a huge elm tree in my grandfather's backyard. I remember when he had to have it cut down because of the Dutch Elm Disease. He was quite upset about losing the tree, not to mention the cost of having it removed. The was on Staten Island, NY.
ex - "I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!"

me - "There's a season?"

Beetle

February 26, 2019, 15:49:55 pm #22 Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 16:49:18 pm by Woolly Bugger
Best Elm in Winston is right below the waterfall at Reynolda Gardens

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You cannot see attachments on this board.


there was something is the exif data that caused the file rotation.... I fixed 'em for ya!

Big J

Quote from: Dougfish on February 26, 2019, 12:44:17 pmPlanning a trip to catch some Goldens before they, and I, are gone.

Carry on.


I feel sorry for the loser that has to drag you around the sierras.
"It is good to have an end to journey toward; but it is the journey that matters, in the end." Hemingway

Dougfish

Quote from: Big J on February 26, 2019, 16:42:12 pm
Quote from: Dougfish on February 26, 2019, 12:44:17 pmPlanning a trip to catch some Goldens before they, and I, are gone.

Carry on.


I feel sorry for the loser that has to drag you around the sierras.

Me too.  :laugh:   :banana072:  n!n
"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? " <br />-Oddball, 1970

Woolly Bugger

ex - "I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!"

me - "There's a season?"

Yallerhammer

The quail disappeared here at the same time the government effectively shut down small tract burley tobacco farming. Almost every little farm had a 1/2 acre tobacco patch, which often grew up in ragweeds late in the summer, and some broomsedge and blackberry fields. When the regulations doomed small farm tobacco, the farmers turned to cattle as the opnly alternative for making money on a small farm; which involved spraying brushkiller on the briars, liming the broomsedge, and sowing everything in frigging fescue. The quail went from abundant to non-existent in a decade.

Black locust is my favorite honey.
Women want me, doughbellies fear me.<br /><br />Little Debbie Prostaff

Woolly Bugger

March 12, 2019, 21:36:07 pm #27 Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 10:27:55 am by Woolly Bugger
Today, if any chestnuts are found in Eastern forests, they don't grow more than a few feet tall + rarely flower. Chestnut trees have reached a "genetic dead-end" in the U.S. because of their inability to reproduce. According to The American Chestnut Foundation "the American chestnut tree survived all adversaries for 40 million years, then disappeared within 40."

In hopes of bringing back the species, researchers have developed a back-cross hybrid with a Chinese blight-resistant chestnut and the native American chestnut. In 2009, 1,000 potentially blight-resistant chestnut trees were planted in the Nantahala National Forest, and two additional plantings took place in Tennessee + Virginia. Since then, more than 80 percent of the saplings across the three national forests have survived. As the trees grow + mature their blight resistance will be tested. With ongoing refinement + research, widespread restoration of the American chestnut may become a reality in the next hundred years.


https://avltoday.6amcity.com/chestnut-tree-wnc/

ex - "I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!"

me - "There's a season?"

Woolly Bugger

QuoteThere are a couple of ways to study forests. Scientists can work on the ground, in nature, detailing the size and shape of trees. As of late, they can also outsource their research to space, using a laser imaging system that is 250 miles above the Earth and traveling more than 17,000 miles per hour to calculate the size and shape of individual trees. The latter method provides highly refined measurements and -- best of all for the scientists -- there are no mosquitoes.

The field work can be grueling. "The first summer was a heat wave in northern Ontario, and the mosquitoes were atrocious," said Laura Duncanson, assistant professor of geographical sciences at the University of Maryland, laughing as she recalled her early days in the field as an undergraduate. "We were measuring the stem diameters of tons of spiky little spruce trees, and I was covered in insect bites, sweat, and scratches."

Today, she and Ralph Dubayah, a professor of geographical sciences at the university, along with scientists at NASA, are using sophisticated new technology mounted on the International Space Station that will help researchers make the first three-dimensional map of the world's temperate and tropical forests. The Global Ecosystem Dynamics Investigation, or GEDI (pronounced "Jedi"), will provide 3D images of forests.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/science/nasa-is-using-space-lasers-to-measure-trees-on-earth/ar-BBUQR05?ocid=spartandhp
ex - "I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!"

me - "There's a season?"

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