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Started by Woolly Bugger, August 13, 2017, 21:49:21 PM

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Woolly Bugger

August 13, 2017, 21:49:21 PM Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 06:12:56 AM by Woolly Bugger

Thought there was a band, turned out to be a candle light vigil for the troubles in Charlottesville -- they made themselves feel better

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ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

NCsporksman

Really harshin on their mellow bruh

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troutfanatic

Damn Keith. I'm surprised you'd go there. This could all be avoided if they'd just take the damn statue and put it in a museum. One that's funded by by the people that worship these statues.


Woolly Bugger

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Al

Quote from: troutfanatic on August 13, 2017, 22:45:37 PM

Damn Keith. I'm surprised you'd go there. This could all be avoided if they'd just take the damn statue and put it in a museum. One that's funded by by the people that worship these statues.

Speaking of museums - Here in Fayettnam we are lobbying for the state taxpayers to kick in 30+ million to build a Confederate War History Museum.

They say timing is everything and IMHO it is poor timing for NC and Fayetteville in particular to be building a state owned and operated Confederate War History Museum.

I'm good with it as long as they include a couple statutes of my wartime hero "Uncle Billy"


Phil


Woolly Bugger

August 14, 2017, 10:25:09 AM #6 Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 10:35:15 AM by Woolly Bugger
Quote from: Al on August 14, 2017, 08:42:27 AM

Quote from: troutfanatic on August 13, 2017, 22:45:37 PM

Damn Keith. I'm surprised you'd go there. This could all be avoided if they'd just take the damn statue and put it in a museum. One that's funded by by the people that worship these statues.

Speaking of museums - Here in Fayettnam we are lobbying for the state taxpayers to kick in 30+ million to build a Confederate War History Museum.

They say timing is everything and IMHO it is poor timing for NC and Fayetteville in particular to be building a state owned and operated Confederate War History Museum.

I'm good with it as long as they include a couple statutes of my wartime hero "Uncle Billy"

Greensboro museum had a great collection of Civil War guns and uniforms and it was the main display in the place, but now they've "expanded" their content and have cut the gun display to  1/4 of what it used to be.

The John and Isabelle Murphy Confederate Firearms Collection is a must for those interested in the distinctive style of these antique firearms. It features over 150 fine examples of longarms from every major Confederate armory. For those who crave works of art, the exhibit includes contemporary paintings by Don Troiani, and is supplemented by Civil War artifacts from our permanent collection.

ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

troutfanatic

Quote from: Woolly Bugger on August 14, 2017, 06:04:00 AM

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/take-the-statues-down/536727/

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What's not to like about that?

I've been down the road before. Allow people to self identify with their prejudice. If they want to put a big old confederate flag on their porch- by all means, self identify. Just don't put any of it on public land and stick taxpayers with the bill.


Woolly Bugger

Quote from: NCsporksman on August 13, 2017, 22:32:57 PM

Really harshin on their mellow bruh

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ex - I'm not going to live with you through one more fishing season!

me -There's a season?

Pastor explains icons to my son: you know like the fish symbol on the back of cars.

My son: My dad has two fish on his car and they're both trout!

Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

August 14, 2017, 12:22:58 PM #9 Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 12:45:56 PM by Mudwall Gatewood 3.0
Quote from: Al on August 14, 2017, 08:42:27 AM

I'm good with it as long as they include a couple statutes of my wartime hero "Uncle Billy"

Sherman was a freaking racist and warrants no "of their time" free pass or statue!

"I like n*ggers well enough as n*ggers, but when fools and idiots try and make n*ggers better than ourselves, I have an opinion", said Uncle Billy.

https://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2010/06/uncle-billys-racism/57886/

"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

troutfanatic

August 14, 2017, 21:52:30 PM #10 Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 21:56:04 PM by troutfanatic

Despite being a retired military officer, I never developed this penchant for studying the Civil War. Sure I did staff rides and I was good at analyzing the tactics and offering alternatives if I got stuck with the losing side, but I was always pretty meh about it. One guy was of interest to me- John S. Mosby. He was a pioneer in unconventional warfare and ran a raider unit that wreaked havoc on the union supply lines. Otherwise... meh.

So a question, at what point does the statue battle end? Is it over when all the CSA monuments are removed? What about Sherman? Sounds pretty bad to me. What if we go deeper than just the CSA? Lincoln is praised as one of our greatest presidents because of the war.

Did he fight it to free slaves, or maintain the Union? Well, it started as maintaining the union, but support was sluggish, especially in the northern-most states where the abolition movement had its roots. He needed that support and he needed that money. In 1862 the Union was losing the war and volunteers were diminishing. By July of 1863, we had draft riots in NYC. He thought the war would drag on for longer than it did, and freed slaves would make good soldiers. Lincoln is known to have not been an abolitionist. In the debates with Douglass, he stated he was not in favor of white-black equality and basically wanted to send them off to colonies away from the US. Lincoln history is what we make of it. Hero? Yes. Great president? Yes. A pillar of equality? Probably not. take that statue down!

Let's go back further. Washington. He offered freedom to slaves that fought for independence, but owned slaves himself. How about Jefferson? What would Sally Hemmings say about all of this? take the statues down. I can name dozens of other celebrated founders who owned slaves.

My point? The statues being protested are all too often on public land, and taxpayer funded. I get it, put them in museums that are privately funded and be done with it.

But, when and where does it end, and what does it achieve?


troutfanatic

Al,

Before good ol' Fayetteville goes building that museum, they may need to kick some funds up to tear this place down.

http://www.fayobserver.com/article/20160226/news/302269875


Yallerhammer

August 15, 2017, 11:15:31 AM #12 Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 11:25:54 AM by Yallerhammer
Quote from: troutfanatic on August 14, 2017, 21:52:30 PM

Despite being a retired military officer, I never developed this penchant for studying the Civil War. Sure I did staff rides and I was good at analyzing the tactics and offering alternatives if I got stuck with the losing side, but I was always pretty meh about it. One guy was of interest to me- John S. Mosby. He was a pioneer in unconventional warfare and ran a raider unit that wreaked havoc on the union supply lines. Otherwise... meh.

So a question, at what point does the statue battle end? Is it over when all the CSA monuments are removed? What about Sherman? Sounds pretty bad to me. What if we go deeper than just the CSA? Lincoln is praised as one of our greatest presidents because of the war.

Did he fight it to free slaves, or maintain the Union? Well, it started as maintaining the union, but support was sluggish, especially in the northern-most states where the abolition movement had its roots. He needed that support and he needed that money. In 1862 the Union was losing the war and volunteers were diminishing. By July of 1863, we had draft riots in NYC. He thought the war would drag on for longer than it did, and freed slaves would make good soldiers. Lincoln is known to have not been an abolitionist. In the debates with Douglass, he stated he was not in favor of white-black equality and basically wanted to send them off to colonies away from the US. Lincoln history is what we make of it. Hero? Yes. Great president? Yes. A pillar of equality? Probably not. take that statue down!

Let's go back further. Washington. He offered freedom to slaves that fought for independence, but owned slaves himself. How about Jefferson? What would Sally Hemmings say about all of this? take the statues down. I can name dozens of other celebrated founders who owned slaves.

My point? The statues being protested are all too often on public land, and taxpayer funded. I get it, put them in museums that are privately funded and be done with it.

But, when and where does it end, and what does it achieve?

Yes, Lincoln used freeing the slaves as an excuse for war, just like Bush talking about freeing the Iraqi people. Keep in mind that slavery was still legal in a lot of the north, and several states that were fighting for the Union held slaves that weren't freed until after the war. The southern slaves were already free long before the northern slaves were.

The Civil War was a complicated thing, and it wasn't about one issue. It was also a horrible thing that cost a lot of blood and misery on both sides.

I had ancestors who died with confederate uniforms on. They had never owned a slave, nor would I guess that they really cared about it one way or the other. They fought because there was a war going on in their homeland, and an invading army was raiding and killing. To tear down that statue is a spit in the face to those who were not involved in the political machinations that started the war, but who lost their lives anyway just trying to protect their land and families and people.

The disturbing part of all this to me is the attempt to erase history.  Like it or not, it happened. And we should remember it and acknowledge it-the good, the bad, and the ugly. And hopefully learn from it. Because like it or not, it is a part of our history and a part of why we are who we are. It changed us fundamentally as a country from a looser union of independent states much like the EU, to a strong central government-controlled nation where the individual states have lost most of their influence. That is another thing that most don't realize.

I see many parallels between confederate statues being torn down in the name of political correctness run amok; and the Taliban destroying the ancient Buddha statues and anything else that didn't agree with their worldview. Enforcement of groupthink is dangerous, no matter which group is doing it.

Another thing that most don't understand at all is that confederate flags and memorials aren't seen as racist or white supremacist symbols by your average southerner, nor or such ideas held or championed by most of us. They have been appropriated and used as symbols of hate, but keep in mind that the KKK flies the American flag at every rally, too. And the folks who aren't southerners or don't know anything about history can't see them as anything else except racist symbols. Believing that Southern = racist is a sign of a closed mind and just as hateful of a stereotype as the other stereotypes the same folks decry.

I think most people actually believe now that the Civil War was all about: North=good, not racists; south=bad, racists. The truth is that almost everybody at the time was a racist, regardless of what part of the country they lived in. Robert E. Lee was no more racist than Abraham Lincoln, if you read what they wrote at the time.

I think we would be better off if the Nazis, the white supremacists, the anti-fa, the BLM-ers, and the KKK were all in the bottom of the ocean. To hell with all the radical protesters on all sides whose agenda seems to be either to make everybody think like they do, or simply to keep trouble stirred up between people who have other things to worry about.

Women want me, doughbellies fear me.<br /><br />Little Debbie Prostaff

troutfanatic

Your reply is exactly why I asked, when and where does it end?

Anything can be deemed offensive by someone. So today it's Lee, tomorrow it's Washington. How about LBJ? He got us in a helluva war and he was not a pillar of equality either.

You cite the Taliban destruction of the Buddha statues at Bamian? In the austere practice of wahabbist or deobandi Islam, any depiction of human form is considered unholy, and should be destroyed.

Will we be accommodating our Muslim immigrant population that hold this belief too?

Once again, where does it end?

Quote

I think we would be better off if the Nazis, the white supremacists, the anti-fa, the BLM-ers, and the KKK were all in the bottom of the ocean. To hell with all the radical protesters on all sides whose agenda seems to be either to make everybody think like they do, or simply to keep trouble stirred up between people who have other things to worry about.

Absolutely, but it seems far too many want to pick a side. Extremes in any ideology is bad.

Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

Quote from: Yallerhammer on August 15, 2017, 11:15:31 AM

Robert E. Lee was no more racist than Abraham Lincoln, if you read what they wrote at the time.

I don't know; we might want to re-evaluate this comparison.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2007/06/24/the-private-thoughts-of-robert-e-lee

Plus Abe never owned slaves and was never indicted for treason.

Sorry gents, I am very particular when it comes to my idols.

"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon


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