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Smith River Sampling

Started by Al, July 11, 2016, 18:59:37 PM

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Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

Quote from: IFStultz on July 18, 2016, 09:57:04 AM

This is by no means a personal attack on Al but, I Wish they would fuck off with shocking fish and just do more patrolling. There are people that will take 30 fish a day out of there and as soon as they hear about this all those big fish will be caught and taken. If they make these samples public you might as well draw the bait chunkers a map to the fish. They have canoes and the ability to access these spots now.

Yes, spoken like a true new puerile fly angler possessed with nonscientific sibyllic powers.

Best not alienate the so-called "bait chunkers".  Trust me; you're going to need them if anglers are going to win this battle against the latest boater rage.

I think we can agree the "bait chunkers" are local; the skilled ones already know the river.  The peril of over-loving the river, if it happens, will come from fly anglers.

"......take 30 fish a day...."  Might be ok since most mawkish fly anglers are not keeping any as suggested.

"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

IFStultz

#16

Don't get fooled by my post count, I've fished that river as long as anyone and longer than most. I've heard people brag about taking more than their limit my whole life. What good exactly is shock surveying gonna do? What good is getting that data if you don't reinforce the laws that are supposed to protect the resource. I've personally had guys tell me "they shocked below the spillway and there are big fish down there" then the word spreads and poachers go take them. It's way easier for the average person to go after them with minnows, power bait, worms whatever. Taking a little more than your limit may not be that bad for the river but taking the few remaining large Browns is a problem. In twenty years I've been stopped by a game warden once. Once. How often have you seen them? If you wanna survey fine but keep the findings to yourself.

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Mudwall Gatewood 3.0

Quote from: IFStultz on July 18, 2016, 11:11:22 AM

Don't get fooled by my post count, I've fished that river as long as anyone and longer than most. I've heard people brag about taking more than their limit my whole life. What good exactly is shock surveying gonna do? What good is getting that data if you don't reinforce the laws that are supposed to protect the resource. I've personally had guys tell me "they shocked below the spillway and there are big fish down there" then the word spreads and poachers go take them. It's way easier for the average person to go after them with minnows, power bait, worms whatever. Taking a little more than your limit may not be that bad for the river but taking the few remaining large Browns is a problem. In twenty years I've been stopped by a game warden once. Once. How often have you seen them? If you wanna survey fine but keep the findings to yourself.

I've been checked 4 times that I can recall since the early 70s, and 2 of those were on the old opening day in what was the special regulation area.

".....taking the few remaining large Browns..." is not the problem.  The problems in the upper reaches above Martinsville are too many small fish and an insufficient food base.  Check the data; I believe in the sections where VDGIF have removed thousands of small trout the growth rate of those remaining has increased.  You either decrease the herd or increase the food.  That is the Smith River story exposed by shocking.

Some bitch about the locals taking all the "breeders".  What is the average size of the spawning browns above Martinsville?  Take a guess.   9-12 inches!!!!!

We must get our heads out of our asses as fly anglers, and join ranks with the spin/bait/stocker anglers, OR we're going to get our asses handed to us by a bunch of floaters in brightly colored plastic crafts.

"Enjoy every sandwich."  Warren Zevon

IFStultz

Quote from: Mudwall Gatewood 3.0 on July 18, 2016, 12:15:10 PM

Quote from: IFStultz on July 18, 2016, 11:11:22 AM

Don't get fooled by my post count, I've fished that river as long as anyone and longer than most. I've heard people brag about taking more than their limit my whole life. What good exactly is shock surveying gonna do? What good is getting that data if you don't reinforce the laws that are supposed to protect the resource. I've personally had guys tell me "they shocked below the spillway and there are big fish down there" then the word spreads and poachers go take them. It's way easier for the average person to go after them with minnows, power bait, worms whatever. Taking a little more than your limit may not be that bad for the river but taking the few remaining large Browns is a problem. In twenty years I've been stopped by a game warden once. Once. How often have you seen them? If you wanna survey fine but keep the findings to yourself.

I've been checked 4 times that I can recall since the early 70s, and 2 of those were on the old opening day in what was the special regulation area.

".....taking the few remaining large Browns..." is not the problem.  The problems in the upper reaches above Martinsville are too many small fish and an insufficient food base.  Check the data; I believe in the sections where VDGIF have removed thousands of small trout the growth rate of those remaining has increased.  You either decrease the herd or increase the food.  That is the Smith River story exposed by shocking.

Some bitch about the locals taking all the "breeders".  What is the average size of the spawning browns above Martinsville?  Take a guess.   9-12 inches!!!!!

We must get our heads out of our asses as fly anglers, and join ranks with the spin/bait/stocker anglers, OR we're going to get our asses handed to us by a bunch of floaters in brightly colored plastic crafts.

That's all fine and great. Wouldn't you like to have a chance of catching 20"+ fish or hell even 16-18" fish? I'm not saying all the bait fisherman are bad but some of them don't give two shits about the slot or creel limits. That is against the law, morally wrong, and bad for the resource. By no means do I mean to characterize all of them as rednecks or poachers. Just saying they have an advantage to catching those fish and there are a few of them who are straight up head hunters. With the dam being broken it's quite easier to get to those fish at 270cfs.
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22midge

#19

    wow! damned if you do damned if you don't

I can understand and totally agree with the idea of broadcasting the pictures telling exact locations..... hell I have shown a few fish caught on the river...
but one thing for sure you wont be able to tell where I'm at by the picture. I don't give directions or draw maps like lots of these fellows do. I will share anything I know if asked by the right people. I have spent a bunch of time on the river also and have never seen an Officer . Enforcement on this river is not different then any other river. One thing for sure we must share this river with all locals and people with different ideas or ways of fishing. Now most important....I think your wrong about the VDGIF.....THEY ARE THE ONLY HOPE FOR THE RIVER......PERIOD. In some ways the river is improving because of their help but just like you I wish there was fewer people and more law enforcement. There is not a lot of access to the river so  lets not step on the toes of those controlling it with labels or judgment because it is not our opinion .

never let a day go by without telling your children how special they are----make a child smile today and gain a friend for life

Al

Just got back to my desktop and will try to respond without using lot of emotion.

I hate it that most of us on this forum use screen names. I've never been able to keep track of who is who. I may know IFShultz and may even have him in my email address book. Hopefully he is one of those who show up when I put out a rallying call for volunteers to assist with our normal Smith River sampling and occasionally at our SRTU meetings - if not, why not?

I know that some of you don't like to hear this but I'm a believer that the main reason the Smith has gone from being a stream that no one wanted to fish to one that folks are now seeing with great potential is increased involvement by VDGIF in collaboration with SRTU and a few individuals who actively advocate for the resource - hopefully many of you count yourself as one of them.

It has already been pointed out that some of the locals know the fishery better then most of us and many of them do not practice catch and release. We addressed this by establishing the protection on brown trout in the 10-24 inch range. I can hear you saying "Yes, but the locals are not following it". That may be so but I don't believe poaching inside the slot is as prevalent as many think. Right now most of the fish below the MV dam and many of those from Kohler to Doe Run fall within the protected slot. If you see anyone with a stringer of fish in those areas they are likely in violation.

The problem lies with each of us who witness these violations and merely shake our heads in disgust and mutter under our breath. Most of us carry cell phones and the number to report suspicious activity or violations is 1-800-237-5712.  Unfortunately we do not currently have a dedicated CPO / Game Warden but they will send someone to check things out. If you can take a photo or get a good description they will gladly use that in a follow up investigation. Even if nothing comes of it your report goes on record and the enforcement supervisors allocate their resources accordingly.

The Smith is what is known as a two tier fishery, ie it is stocked with rainbows and has naturally spawned browns. Some folks have advocated stopping the stocking but that is not going to happen. In fact, there is some discussion about continuing to stock during non-stocking season if and when they get the cold water flows back to normal (yes, that would mess up some of you guys who are too cheap to purchase a trout license).  IFS also mentioned folks catching multiple limits on stocking day - it happens but probably not as much as we think. This is also the day that enforcement officers are more apt to be around so folks who cheat do so at their own peril. Once again, if we let it pass we are part of the problem.

OK, not sure I addressed everything. I maybe even stirred the pot but isn't that what fishing forums are all about 0:0


Dougfish

What Al says and more.

If you "know poaching is going on" and you don't call that number....you are part of the problem.
If you don't get pictures and license plate numbers.....you are part of the problem.
If you don't "know what good exactly is shock surveying gonna do" maybe you should join in one time. Or come to our December meeting where the biologists present their yearly findings. You just might learn a thing or two about the river and their work and how those surveys determine their river management.

I'm a wee babe on the Smiff. Coming up on 8 or 9 years of getting schooled. I have been stopped once on the Smith below 220 bridge. A stocked section.
We had a nice conversation about fly fishing, which he had little knowledge of. I thanked him for his service. These guys are stretched thin, overworked, underpaid and under thanked.

And BTW, I know everyone in this thread except you, Mr. IFS. Come to a meeting or our fish with a friend in September. Or flag me down on the river, you've seen my mug.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? " -Oddball, 1970

"I don't wanna go to hell,
But if I do,
It'll be 'cause of you..."
Strange Desire, The Black Keys, 2006

ICflies

I agree with Ifstultz, I grew up on the smith and I have been fly fishing the lower end over 25 years. I have never gotten on social media and posted pictures or bragged about how great the fishing is below Koehler. The reason why is because I release the fish I catch. If the the average fishermen finds out that stretch of river holds nice size Browns they will fuck it up for people that really do respect the rules. Most of the river that far down is inaccessible from the bank meaning that it is not patrolled by wardens. They can check you coming in or out but that's about it. So what I'm trying to say is if you want the lower end to be as fucked up as the upper sections keep posting pics and telling everyone about the precious resource of Browns that are there and I promise they will be cleaned out and if you don't shut the hell up about it!


troutfanatic

Quote

.  maybe even stirred the pot but isn't that what fishing forums are all about?

That was funny.

The Smith Conundrum:
How to get the upper fish to grow and how to get the lower fish to reproduce (more).

No one should be fooled that there are no large fish in the Bassett area. They are just harder to find.

Al, don't make me post that pic again from last August.

Sampling may well help solve that mystery one day.


IFStultz

Sample your little heart out but keep the findings to yourself. Maybe spend a little more of the ridiculous license fees on enforcement. That's all. Nothing personal.

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troutfanatic

I'm not arguing against enforcement and I do agree with you on that point.
I have also seen yay-hoos creeling fish inside the slot. In fact two summers ago I watched two characters float a large stretch of the UPPER River in a John boat with a bunch of 8-14" inch Browns in the boat. I took a pic and sent it to VDGIF. I don't know if they took action or not, but enough complaining may spark action.
Regarding chuckers and tossers: it's been said, unity is needed. There is a fight for the future of the river and a few dozen fly fishermen will not win it alone. I despise treble hooks, but it is what it is.

I think far too much info is being handed out in these smith threads too, but it ain't the only game in town.
I am certain there have been, possibly still are members of this forum that fish by both means. I used to years ago. There are also novice fly fishermen who will try the 5 weight with a dry dropper, but if they don't get what they want, they will gladly switch to the UL rig and a panther Martin.

Food for thought.


Al

Quote from: ICflies on July 18, 2016, 16:10:35 PM

I agree with Ifstultz, I grew up on the smith and I have been fly fishing the lower end over 25 years. I have never gotten on social media and posted pictures or bragged about how great the fishing is below Koehler. The reason why is because I release the fish I catch. If the the average fishermen finds out that stretch of river holds nice size Browns they will fuck it up for people that really do respect the rules. Most of the river that far down is inaccessible from the bank meaning that it is not patrolled by wardens. They can check you coming in or out but that's about it. So what I'm trying to say is if you want the lower end to be as fucked up as the upper sections keep posting pics and telling everyone about the precious resource of Browns that are there and I promise they will be cleaned out and if you don't shut the hell up about it!

I see we have another newcomer to the forum - Welcome.

Do I know you? Have we met? Hopefully you have been contributing and not just fishing your "secret spots" and muttering about all us fools who see the Smith as more then a "secret spot". As TF just mentioned below. We need a little unity and perhaps there is too much info given out but let's face it the Smith is not a blueline. You old timers with your secret spots may not agree but having fished the Smith for the past 25 years myself I say things are better and they got that way because a few of us got things going. Forums like this got the ball rolling. 


Dougfish

Dude sounds like Brian Williams. Nothing personal.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? " -Oddball, 1970

"I don't wanna go to hell,
But if I do,
It'll be 'cause of you..."
Strange Desire, The Black Keys, 2006

IFStultz

Fuck Brian Williams.

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ICflies

No we have never met other than maybe passing on the river. I don't consider my spots "secret" they are open to anyone that's willing to put in the time and really fish the water and not stand under a bridge waiting for the fish to be thrown into your net. That is NOT what trout fishing should be.  I do not agree with advertising LARGE BROWN TROUT HERE! If people want to find out what's on the lower end they need to get off their asses and put in the work. This is not personal but I know from experience that when you spread the word you don't get to choose the company that shows up!

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